If Godolphin didnt have Discreet Cat

brockguy · #1 10-12-2006, 03:37 PM

would there be a different scenario re: Bernardini??

King Glorious · #2 10-12-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brockguy

would there be a different scenario re: Bernardini??

I think yes. Of course, we don't know for sure that he'll be retiring. But if he does, I think it's only because of Discreet Cat.

#3 10-12-2006, 05:39 PM

Isn't Discreet Cat owned by his son and not him? I don't think Bernardini retiring after the BC has anything to do with DC.

#4 10-12-2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

No thats Henny Hughes.

Ok, that's right (that's how much I'm paying attention to racing

). But I still don't think DC has anything to with Bernie retiring after the BC.

#5 10-12-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Eyes

Isn't Discreet Cat owned by his son and not him? I don't think Bernardini retiring after the BC has anything to do with DC.

Do you really think it makes a difference which horse is "owned" by the Sheik ... and which is "owned" by his son ... and which is "owned" by his brother-in-law ... etc. ... etc. ... etc.?

Do you really think they discuss this over their plates of baba ganoush?

Cannon Shell · #6 10-12-2006, 07:59 PM

That's like saying "would the Tigers be winning if they had Arod?"
Interesting argument but too many variables to come to a conclusion.

#7 10-12-2006, 08:15 PM

I think the two horses have more differences than similarities: Bernardini seems sound, but Discreet Cat has been characterized as the opposite by many on the internet. Bernardini is the son of a brilliant racehorse and sire expected to give the world the best; Discreet Cat is the son of an accomplished runner retired with soundness issues and still not an established sire. I believe Godolphin sees the two as quite different, at this point. Because Bernardini is a son of A.P. Indy and not Forestry, he could be too important to their breeding program. That will be the fans' loss and I hate it.

#8 10-12-2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Do you really think it makes a difference which horse is "owned" by the Sheik ... and which is "owned" by his son ... and which is "owned" by his brother-in-law ... etc. ... etc. ... etc.? Do you really think they discuss this over their plates of baba ganoush?

That's being racists.

And yes, it does make a difference, seeing how they all want to win races with their own horses and they have a friendly competitive spirit amongst themselves.

Danzig · #9 10-12-2006, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I think the two horses have more differences than similarities: Bernardini seems sound, but Discreet Cat has been characterized as the opposite by many on the internet. Bernardini is the son of a brilliant racehorse and sire expected to give the world the best; Discreet Cat is the son of an accomplished runner retired with soundness issues and still not an established sire. I believe Godolphin sees the two as quite different, at this point. Because Bernardini is a son of A.P. Indy and not Forestry, he could be too important to their breeding program. That will be the fans' loss and I hate it.

discreet cat had some issues after shipping here from dubai. it happens, not all horses handle shipping well....whether his prolonged summer vacation is from chronic unsoundness, i don't know. he's had a couple good races since coming back and is pointing towards his next. doesn't sound like a powder puff, GZ type since he's not taking long breaks between each start.

as for bernie, i apparently missed all the fireworks on the othe thread and now it's closed.....i know many expected the sheik to be a 'good sport' and keep his horse out there running. but bernardini isn't his only good racehorse--but he is his only classic winner, and as i said months ago, he's got a farm to put on the map. bernardini has the great pr, and a pedigree to boot. i doubt anyone is really that surprised to see in print that he's most likely done after the bcc--maybe hoping it wouldn't happen, but really surprised?! nah...

discreet cat is his racehorse for next year, bernardini is his derby winning sire. he wants to win that race his way. since coming from dubai isn't working out for him yet, than i guess he'll settle for breeding one for himself.

King Glorious · #10 10-12-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Eyes

That's being racists.

And yes, is does make a difference, seeing how they all want to win races with their own horses and they have a friendly competitive spirit amongst themselves.

Interesting that u say that. If that were true, I think Discreet Cat would be in the Classic. But they clearly said he would only run if something unforseen happened to Bernardini. They said the only race he was likely for was the Sprint but that was before Henny Hughes passed his big test so now he won't be there. And then there is this piece of news that I read today:

The presence of Henny Hughes in the Sprint will most likely keep the top filly contender Dubai Escapade out of the lineup, according to her trainer, Eoin Harty. Harty said Dubai Escapade remains under consideration for both the Sprint and Distaff, although she could also start in Aqueduct's First Flight Handicap on Oct. 28.

"Right now we're training her like she still might run in the Breeders' Cup, although I don't think she'll go a mile and one-eighth and I don't think she can beat Henny Hughes," said Harty. "She's also owned by the same team who have Henny Hughes, so unless something were to happen to him, it's probably doubtful she'll run in the Sprint."
_________________________

The clearly aren't running their top horses against each other. Doesn't matter which family member name the horse technically runs under. It's all the same family.

Hwjb · #11 10-13-2006, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I think the two horses have more differences than similarities: Bernardini seems sound, but Discreet Cat has been characterized as the opposite by many on the internet. Bernardini is the son of a brilliant racehorse and sire expected to give the world the best; Discreet Cat is the son of an accomplished runner retired with soundness issues and still not an established sire. I believe Godolphin sees the two as quite different, at this point. Because Bernardini is a son of A.P. Indy and not Forestry, he could be too important to their breeding program. That will be the fans' loss and I hate it.

With Coolmore shelling out $16m for a son of Forestry, surely having a Champion son of that stallion of their own will be huge for Godolphin. I disagree, I would say that Discreet Cat is the more important of the 2.

#12 10-13-2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

One-hundred percent wrong.

It's clear that Shake Mo is retiring Bernardini because he wants him to be the foundation sire of his push to win the American classics, particularly the Kentucky Derby, the greatest race in the world. (The other race he covets is the Melbourne Cup.)

Discreet Cat cannot hold that position.

I'd have to agree. I think he can't wait to get to stud to not only breed his own but to lure the best commercial mares away froom competitors stallions, especially Coolmore's. I thought about this last night for a while, when asking myself why he would retire him because its certainly not about themoney. I concluded what you did.
Discreet Cat may or may not have a huge impact in the sire market, but Bernadini certainly will. Coming from the coveted Ap Indy sire line, and also posessing speed that many AP Indy's do not posess, its very safe to assume that he will be highly sought after and a good bet to succeed at the highest level.

Cajungator26 · #13 10-13-2006, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

One-hundred percent wrong.

It's clear that Shake Mo is retiring Bernardini because he wants him to be the foundation sire of his push to win the American classics, particularly the Kentucky Derby, the greatest race in the world. (The other race he covets is the Melbourne Cup.)

Discreet Cat cannot hold that position.

In all due respect, Forestry has only been at stud long enough to have only a few crops at racing age (since 2000.) A.P. Indy has been around 7 seasons longer and I think it's unfair and premature at this time to say that a Forestry son couldn't be a foundation sire at SOME POINT. As it stands now, of the Sires currently standing in North America, Forestry ranks behind only Storm Cat (his sire) by Lifetime Percent Stakes winners from Starters and he's the sire of 24% Stakes Horses / 65% of which are Graded Stakes Horses. I wouldn't discount his influence just yet.

SniperSB23 · #14 10-13-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Interesting that u say that. If that were true, I think Discreet Cat would be in the Classic. But they clearly said he would only run if something unforseen happened to Bernardini. They said the only race he was likely for was the Sprint but that was before Henny Hughes passed his big test so now he won't be there. And then there is this piece of news that I read today:

The presence of Henny Hughes in the Sprint will most likely keep the top filly contender Dubai Escapade out of the lineup, according to her trainer, Eoin Harty. Harty said Dubai Escapade remains under consideration for both the Sprint and Distaff, although she could also start in Aqueduct's First Flight Handicap on Oct. 28.

"Right now we're training her like she still might run in the Breeders' Cup, although I don't think she'll go a mile and one-eighth and I don't think she can beat Henny Hughes," said Harty. "She's also owned by the same team who have Henny Hughes, so unless something were to happen to him, it's probably doubtful she'll run in the Sprint."
_________________________

The clearly aren't running their top horses against each other. Doesn't matter which family member name the horse technically runs under. It's all the same family.

And now they aren't running Ashkal Way in the BC Mile because they have other horses to point there. How anyone can call them sporting at this point is beyond me.

#15 10-13-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

I should have written that it is much more likely for an A.P. Indy-sired horse than a Forestry-sired horse to be an influence on what appears to be Shake Mo's goal: to win the Derby. It's more than that, though.

That he has wanted to win the Derby "his way," or the "Godolphin way" is well known; those are the Shake's words. Now, that seems to mean more than simply preparing a horse in Dubai and shipping him to Churchill Downs. He wants to breed his Derby winner as well.

In an interview with reporters before leaving the Keeneland sale last month, he mentioned "everything" in terms of what he wants to accomplish from his racing operation. I read this impromptu interview on Bloodhorse; actually, it's very interesting. I'm wondering if anyone maintains access to that Q&A.

I also have read off-the-cuff comments from the Sheikh that imply that he wants his Preakness winner to give him his Derby winner. I have seen more than once the implication that he wants a "more American-type breeding" to accomplish this. What could be better than an A.P. indy to do this! I just hope he waits until 2008 to get started on this project.

#16 10-13-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Interesting that u say that. If that were true, I think Discreet Cat would be in the Classic. But they clearly said he would only run if something unforseen happened to Bernardini. They said the only race he was likely for was the Sprint but that was before Henny Hughes passed his big test so now he won't be there. And then there is this piece of news that I read today:

The presence of Henny Hughes in the Sprint will most likely keep the top filly contender Dubai Escapade out of the lineup, according to her trainer, Eoin Harty. Harty said Dubai Escapade remains under consideration for both the Sprint and Distaff, although she could also start in Aqueduct's First Flight Handicap on Oct. 28.

"Right now we're training her like she still might run in the Breeders' Cup, although I don't think she'll go a mile and one-eighth and I don't think she can beat Henny Hughes," said Harty. "She's also owned by the same team who have Henny Hughes, so unless something were to happen to him, it's probably doubtful she'll run in the Sprint."
_________________________

The clearly aren't running their top horses against each other. Doesn't matter which family member name the horse technically runs under. It's all the same family.

Those horses you speak of that aren't running in the same races are owned by the same owner. These people want to WIN. They aren't in to their horses finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th.... they want to WIN. Why enter two of your horse in the same race when only one of them can win?