|
|
 |
|
#1
10-13-2006, 10:38 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Champions Who Failed As Stallions
On another thread ... as a result of the possible retirement of Bernardini ... a youngster ... who doesn't know very much about this game ... asked me if a champion racehorse was ever a failure as a stallion.
I replied ... "Why sure, son ... there have been lots of them" ... and supplied this partial list for him to study and ponder ... Ponder ... Citation ... Coaltown ... Hill Prince ... Iron Liege ... Tim Tam ... Nadir ... Sword Dancer ... Bald Eagle ... Crimson Satan ... Jaipur ... Ridan ... Never Bend ... Bold Lad ... Successor ... Dr. Fager ... Vitriolic ... Arts And Letters ... Personality ... Riva Ridge ... Ack Ack ... Sham ... Wajima ... Bold Forbes ... Youth ... Affirmed ... Spectacular Bid ... Lord Avie ... Temperence Hill ... Conquistador Cielo ... Devil's Bag ... Chief's Crown ... Spend A Buck ... Vanlandingham ... Turkoman ... Smile ... Alysheba ... Ferdinand ... Groovy ... Easy Goer ... Risen Star ... Rhythm ... Blushing John ... Steinlen ...Fly So Free ... Criminal Type ... Housebuster ... Arazi ... Hansel ... Black Tie Affair ... Gilded Time ... Pleasant Tap ... Rubiano ... Dehere ... Bertrando ... Timber Country ... Holy Bull ... Cigar ... Skip Away ... Lit De Justice ... Favorite Trick ... Silver Charm ... Free House ... Answer Lively ... Real Quiet ... Victory Gallop ... Artax ... Can anyone out there add a few more ... to help educate one of our eager and deserving young friends? 
|
|
#2
10-13-2006, 10:59 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
The poster who "guaranteed" that Bernardini will be a success as a stallion ... is just a starry-eyed youngster ... who's aware that he knows absolutely nothing about thoroughbred racing ... but ... ... at least he asked a real authority on the game ... me ... for help. Give him a little credit for wanting to learn ... won't you?
|
|
#3
10-13-2006, 11:10 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
That's a distorted list. Some horses never had a chance . . . Dr. Fager for one. And the final chapter on some horses has yet to be written . . . Conquistador Cielo is an example.
Before Bernardini, how many Triple Crown races had the progeny of AP Indy won? Zero. Yet AP Indy was bred to the very best mares, his offspring sold for the highest prices, and his offspring was sent to the very best barns. Yet for Triple Crown races he was less than 1 for 1000 or so. Now he's about 1 for 1000. Depends on how you define a failure. Maybe at $300,000 AP Indy could be defined as a failure too. Some people say Grindstone is a failure. Yet his offspring won a Triple Crown race before AP Indy's offspring did. Think about that. $5,000 fee for Grindstone vs. $300,000 fee for AP Indy.
|
|
#6
10-14-2006, 12:34 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
I have no problem betting a VGallop horse. his offspring may not look like much, but he gets runners. I dont have the numbers in front of me, but he produces winners at every level. Repent
|
|
#7
10-14-2006, 12:50 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Not very impressed Bold!
|
|
#8
10-14-2006, 12:55 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
yeah,
HBull has proved to be a useful sire. and Im not talking about Giacomo and Macho Uno b/c, although Grade 1 winners, those are just 2 horses out of hundreds. HBull's do well on turf when stretched out. maybe they are just high leveled claimers, but they are still runners. a failure at stud is a horse that cant get his horses to the track or a stud who simply does not produce winners. thats not the case for those that I mentioned. Repent
|
|
#9
10-14-2006, 12:56 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Victory Gallop A Failure ?
I think Victory Gallop has had several Graded Stakes Winner's, so, I am not sure I would call that a failure.
|
|
#10
10-14-2006, 01:02 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
and its even more than that. stakes races and stakes runners are such a small percentage of thoroughbred racing. I handicap VGallop runners at Calder, Colonial, Beulah, Belmont, Inner Aqueduct, Outer Aqueduct, Arlignton, Fairmont, Emerald, ..................wherever and they win at every level(claiming, allowance, overnight stakes, graded stakes). his horses look terrible a lot of times. but they can run and they are competitive. that makes him an excellent sire in my book. he is like a poor man's Marias Mon. marias mon is my favorite sre b/c they win everywhere. sprint, route, dirt, turf, off track, whatever..........they are runners. Repent
|
|
#11
10-14-2006, 01:10 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Conquistador Cielo-
You see a lot of his offspring out in Cali. They seem to be allright, especialy in sprint ranks. Repent brings up a good point about horses even getting to the track... If the Sire is producing what appear to be freakishly talented runners, but that are also freakishly injury prone, is that considered successful? How would you brand Fu Peg so far based on this point?
__________________
Facebook- Peter May Jr. Twitter- @pmayjr You wouldn't be ballin' if your name was Spauldin' If y'all fresh to death, then I'm deceased...
|
|
#12
10-14-2006, 01:10 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Sire: Victory Gallop
Thanks, Repent ! This is probably one of my all time favorite horses and I always follow his progeny and have won a lot of money on these youngsters. I couldn't believe what I was reading.
|
|
#13
10-14-2006, 01:17 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
its the whole triple crown lunacy that blinds so many fans. Im not saying thats what BB was doing, but its the most overemphasized part of the game. Vgallop performed well in the triple crown races. so ppl want to see his horses do well in the triple crown races and consider him a disappointment when they do not. its BS. same for Free House. he was a very good California sire when he was alive. so what if they did not run in triple crown races. its just 3 races, and to be honest, the Preakness and Belmont are 2 of the softer Grade 1 races around at this point. the Haskell and Travers almost always come up tougher as far as 3Yo Grade 1 races are concerned. Repent
|
|
#14
10-14-2006, 03:06 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
This list is absurd. It includes many stallions - like Ack Ack, Affirmed, Lord Avie, Conquistador Cielo, Devil's Bag, too many to list - who had good, productive careers as stallions. So they never led the sire lists; a lot of good sires don't . Many of those named figured among the top 10 or 20 during their careers. Horses who sire 9% SWs are not failures. Now Personality, that was a failure.
|
|
#15
10-14-2006, 03:51 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
|
|
#16
10-14-2006, 07:31 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
But the poster was trying to put into context how the performance of some in the shed fall short of their performances on the track.
|
|
#17
10-14-2006, 07:33 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
There's also a difference between success at stud as "fashionable" and success at stud unfashionably..
Pleasant Tap is a 'success' if anyone is willing to let the progeny ripen. Through '04, Tap's stats yield 74% runners, 49% winners and 8% stakes winners. At $10,000 a clip, he's the greatest bargain in breeding.. Turf.. Dirt.. routes.. sprints.. Tap Dance City, Tap the Admiral (RIP), PT's Grey Eagle, Pleasant Breeze, Tap to Music.. And he get's his get from ordinary mares. But the breeding industry is precocious crazy and care little about soundness and longevity, so Pleasant Tap is a "failure" at stud.. Myopic..
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans
|
|
#18
10-14-2006, 07:38 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Big difference between commerical failure and failure in general. Most start at such a high stud fee that the expectations are insane to begin with.
|
|
#19
10-14-2006, 07:56 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Louisborg, Victorious Ami, Separato, Red Lifesaver, Rousing Victory. Now that being said....I think BB is correct to say that Victory Gallop has not been a real big success as a sire. Being a sire of decent claimers and the occasional small stakes winner is fine, but as Oracle suggests, it isn't exactly what most people hope for when they send a champion like VG to the shed. The list on the whole I think is rather good, but I have to take some issue with Affirmed. The Tin Man Flawlessly Affirmed Success Quiet Resolve Affluent Zoman Peteski Those were all MULTIPLE G1 winners by Affirmed which makes me wonder just how many MULTIPLE G1 winners you need to sire before you are no longer considered a failure. Add those names to his long list of other graded stakes winners and his success as a broodmare sire.....and I think calling him a failure is a tad inaccurate.
|
|
#20
10-14-2006, 08:58 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
I opened my 2006 stallion register, which is complete to the end of October,2005. Victory Gallop had at that time three crops of racing age, the oldest being 4; from 192 named foals, he had 67% runners (only 11 of 54 2yos), 49% winners (5 of those 11 2yos) and 10 SWs (0 2yo). Obviously, he isn't a sire of early maturing stock. If you consider only his 3 and 4yos, he had 80% runners, 65% winners from foals, and 7% SWs, which are not bad numbers for a very young stud career. No homeruns yet, just a lot of steady singles and doubles.
|
Linear Mode
