Liam's Map=Cross Traffic part 2?

[Seattleallstar]

ran ok today against a so so bunch, maybe had every right to look above normal after that last race

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

ran ok today against a so so bunch, maybe had every right to look above normal after that last race

Or the next Graydar.

Unbridled's Song. Spaced out races. Debut late as a 3yo. Debut late at 4. Jumped back to left lead late.

Nice horse. But won't be surprised if he fails to make it to the BC.

But hey, he's already done enough to be a stallion so the train keeps rolling.

Meanwhile, I'd like to see Mylute refurbished as a late-running sprinter. How far is the Vosburgh nowadays?

[freddymo]

I am of the opinion Liams Map takes the QRoad Lawyer Ron Graydar Cross Traffic route to detonation, he will turn into a pumpkin before classic

[Jasper131]

The Vosburgh is 6 furlongs.

They are talking Dirt Mile for Liam's Map...Now granted, that's obviously an easier spot (no kidding). But you run that race in the Whitney, which was tremendous, and then win the Woodward...you go to the Classic. The Dirt Mile is not supposed to take a horse that would be one of the top choices in the Classic. If the Classic loses a 30-1 shot, so be it. But running Liam's Map in the Dirt Mile would be Point A for those (not me) that said the Breeders Cup would be competing against itself adding that race.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Jasper131

The Vosburgh is 6 furlongs.

They are talking Dirt Mile for Liam's Map...Now granted, that's obviously an easier spot (no kidding). But you run that race in the Whitney, which was tremendous, and then win the Woodward...you go to the Classic. The Dirt Mile is not supposed to take a horse that would be one of the top choices in the Classic. If the Classic loses a 30-1 shot, so be it. But running Liam's Map in the Dirt Mile would be Point A for those (not me) that said the Breeders Cup would be competing against itself adding that race.

It's his last race Champion Miler is what connection want on his Stallion page right? 3rd in BCC after a stunning race is what we want to see not a walk over..

BTW it's a Mile and 70 yards NOT a mile

[Jasper131]

Originally Posted by freddymo

It's his last race Champion Miler is what connection want on his Stallion page right? 3rd in BCC after a stunning race is what we want to see not a walk over.

I agree with you. I'm just saying that if you lose a horse that could easily have won Saratoga's two grade 1 handicap races for older horses to a 2nd tier BC race, that would be bad for the Breeders Cup and bad for the fans and the game.

[South Beach Luv]

Private Zone and Liam's Map would be fun in the Dirt Mile though.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Jasper131

I agree with you. I'm just saying that if you lose a horse that could easily have won Saratoga's two grade 1 handicap races for older horses to a 2nd tier BC race, that would be bad for the Breeders Cup and bad for the fans and the game.

The mile is a second tier race? Only if the met mile is.
There are second tier BC races, but I don't think this is one of them

[Jasper131]

Originally Posted by Danzig

The mile is a second tier race? Only if the met mile is.
There are second tier BC races, but I don't think this is one of them

You can't compare the Met Mile to the Dirt Mile (at all) because you don't have to skip the Breedrs Cup Classic to run in there.

Goldencents won the last two years, granted...the other on-the-board horses were Tapiture, Pants on Fire, Golden Ticket, and Brujo de Ojlleros. Come on. That's a second-tier BC race.

[RolloTomasi]

Those that say that the BC Dirt Mile shot the BC in its own foot don't need Liam's Map (nor Honor Code--see his next target--for that matter) to reroute there for any further proof.

Witness:

2007: Corinthian, the Met Mile winner and Gulfstream Park Handicap winner (9.5f) wins over a field including multiple two-turn Graded stakes winner Wanderin Boy, Iselin (9f) winner Gottcha Gold, Cigar Mile and UAE Derby (9f) winner Discreet Cat, and Washington Park Handicap (9.5f) winner Lewis Michael.

2008: Listed stakes winner Albertus Maximus beats sprinter Rebellion (should have been in BC Sprint), Lewis Michael (again), Louisiana Derby (9f) and Travers placed Pyro, Hollywood Gold Cup winner Mast Track, San Antonio/San Diego/Goodwood winner Well Armed, Super Derby (9f) winner My Pal Charlie, among others. This version took away winners of some major Classic "preps" and was won by a horse that had never won a graded stakes.

2009: Ex-claimer Furtherst Land, who won the Kentucky Cup Classic (9f), beats a field that includes classic winner Mastercraftsman (should have been in turf Mile), G1 turf miler Mr. Sidney (should have been in turf Mile), Forego winner Pyro (should have been in the Sprint). This version took away from 3 BC races and was won by a non-G1 horse.

2010: San Diego and Big Cap and Pac Classic placed Dakota Phone edges Penn Derby (9f) winner Morning Line, G1 winning sprinter Gayego (should have been in Sprint), G1 sprinter Vineyard Haven (should have been in Sprint), Kentucky Derby winner Mine That Bird, future Whitney winner Tizway, and future top sprinter Aikenite. This was Dakota Phone's only Grade 1 win in a 30+ race career.

2011: King's Bishop winner Caleb's Posse (should have been in Sprint) tags Preakness winner Shackleford, top sprinter Trappe Shot (should have been in Sprint), multiple two turn stakes horse Tres Borrachos, Jersey Town (should have been in Sprint), top sprinter The Factor (should have been in Sprint), and Indiana Derby winner Wilburn.

2012: Tapizar, an also ran from the previous year, gets his only career G1 win dusting former Hollywood Gold Cup winner Rail Trip, Durham Cup (9f) winner Delegation, top sprinter Emcee (should have been in Sprint), classic winner Shackleford again, and non-G1 winner Fed Biz.

2013: Santa Anita Derby winner Goldencents dusts Travers winner Golden Ticket, Wood Memorial and Haskell winner Verrazano, Donn winner Hymn Book, multiple two turn winner Pants on Fire, Woodward and Travers winner Alpha, Grade 1 sprinter Centralinteligence (should have been in Sprint--or scratched since he was vanned off).

2014: Goldencents, reformed as a sprinter (should have been in Sprint), wins again wiring West Virginia Derby winner Tapiture, Pants on Fire again, turf horse Big Bane Theory (should have been in turf Mile), Fed Biz for the 3rd time, and Golden Ticket again.

This race is year in and year out, horrendous. It is a great undercard race to highlight midwest Derby winners, aging former top class runners, and Grade 2 types. In addition to taking away Classic horses here and there, the main problem is it also often draws away top sprinters, especially 7f specialists, which is a shame, because several Sprints have been won by late running/route types from Precisionist to Smile to Gulch to Dancing Spree to Cherokee Run to Lit de Justice to Artax to Midnight Lute. Pleasant Tap, Dispersal, Grand Slam, Honour and Glory placed in the race. I guess the lamented loss of Aldebaran haunts the trainers of those type horses nowadays.

[Danzig]

Wait...honor code won the met mile, a prestigious race. But he would prove by running in the BC mile that it isn't a prestigious race?

There are mile specialists. They don't belong in the sprint, don't belong in the classic. Excelling at a mile doesn't make one a second tier horse.

And yes, Jasper, you have to choose a race. But your criteria makes every race for every horse other than the juvie races second tier.
I can think of many BC races I'd ditch before the mile.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

Wait...honor code won the met mile, a prestigious race. But he would prove by running in the BC mile that it isn't a prestigious race?

Is that to say that Honor Code does not belong in the Classic? I doubt that is what you are saying.

So, if they run the Dirt Mile and the Classic on the same weekend, isn't that an inefficient carding of races?

And with a handful of runnings of the Dirt Mile and over a 100 runnings of the Met Mile, there is a world of difference in prestige. It's about time and history. Not a single Eclipse champion has won the Dirt Mile. Actually, juvenile champion Midshipman might be the only Eclipse winner to even start in the race.

There are mile specialists. They don't belong in the sprint, don't belong in the classic. Excelling at a mile doesn't make one a second tier horse.

Yeah, and who are these dedicated milers? Goldencents was beaten less than a length in 4 G1 6f races and set a track record at 7f. He didn't belong in the Sprint? Honor Code and Liam's Map won the Whitney and Woodward respectively, they don't belong in the Classic? How about Palace Malice, a Belmont and Met Mile winner? Criminal Type? Ghostzapper? Holy Bull? Gulch? Congaree? Private Zone? Stay Thirsty? To Honor and Serve? Left Bank? Forty Niner? Cigar?

There are also 7f specialists, too. Should we have a BC Extended Sprint as well?

[Port Conway Lane]

I don't get it. Is the race to blame,the distance,the connections? It adds a third dirt race for 3 and up at a middle distance. If you eliminate the race you have a six furlong sprint and a mile and a quarter route for all 3@up males to point for.
I wonder how all the horses that should've pointed for the sprint (including 2 horses that actually won the mile) would have been any better off being an also ran in a different race. After all they all couldn't have won it.

As for Liam's Map I would want him in the Classic but if the connections decide a daughter of Trippi wouldn't be able to produce a 1 1/4 racehorse (or whatever their reasoning) I just accept it and move on. Eliminating the Mile won't force the hand of any connections to run in the Classic. They'll simply find another place and time to run.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

I don't get it. Is the race to blame,the distance,the connections? It adds a third dirt race for 3 and up at a middle distance. If you eliminate the race you have a six furlong sprint and a mile and a quarter route for all 3@up males to point for.
I wonder how all the horses that should've pointed for the sprint (including 2 horses that actually won the mile) would have been any better off being an also ran in a different race. After all they all couldn't have won it.

As for Liam's Map I would want him in the Classic but if the connections decide a daughter of Trippi wouldn't be able to produce a 1 1/4 racehorse (or whatever their reasoning) I just accept it and move on. Eliminating the Mile won't force the hand of any connections to run in the Classic. They'll simply find another place and time to run.

A daughter of Yankee Gentleman produced the Belmont winner, oh and the KD

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

I don't get it. Is the race to blame,the distance,the connections? It adds a third dirt race for 3 and up at a middle distance. If you eliminate the race you have a six furlong sprint and a mile and a quarter route for all 3@up males to point for.

Who cares about all 3@up males? The BC is a "championship" event. That means Grade 1, top class horses. Half the Dirt Mile winners never won a Grade 1 before or after.

I wonder how all the horses that should've pointed for the sprint (including 2 horses that actually won the mile) would have been any better off being an also ran in a different race. After all they all couldn't have won it.

What do you mean they couldn't have won it? What about Precisionist? What about Gulch? What about Dancing Spree? What about Smile?

As for Liam's Map I would want him in the Classic but if the connections decide a daughter of Trippi wouldn't be able to produce a 1 1/4 racehorse (or whatever their reasoning) I just accept it and move on. Eliminating the Mile won't force the hand of any connections to run in the Classic. They'll simply find another place and time to run.

Yeah, they can race on the undercard where they belong.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by freddymo

A daughter of Yankee Gentleman produced the Belmont winner, oh and the KD

Yeah, not that I pay any attention to that. I read somewhere that he had the worst breeding of any of the last 50 belmont winners. Goes to show ya.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Who cares about all 3@up males? The BC is a "championship" event. That means Grade 1, top class horses. Half the Dirt Mile winners never won a Grade 1 before or after.

Well then I guess the mile doesn't diminish the Classic.

What do you mean they couldn't have won it? What about Precisionist? What about Gulch? What about Dancing Spree? What about Smile?

I'm not talking about the horses that won the sprint (and you have no idea what race those winners would have opted for) I'm speaking of the recent years you cited in which multiple horses were listed that you claim should have run in the sprint.

Yeah, they can race on the undercard where they belong.

It simply doesn't force them to run in the Classic. Blame the connections if you're looking for a scapegoat.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Well then I guess the mile doesn't diminish the Classic.

Wrong. Preakness winner Shackleford, Travers/Woodward winner Alpha, Hollywood Gold Cup winner Mast Track, Goodwood winner Well Armed, Travers winner Golden Ticket, Donn winner Hymn Book, Hollywood Gold Cup winner Rail Trip, Haskell winner Verrazano all had credentials for the Classic.

I'm not talking about the horses that won the sprint (and you have no idea what race those winners would have opted for) I'm speaking of the recent years you cited in which multiple horses were listed that you claim should have run in the sprint.

Ok. So how do you know Goldencents, Gayego, Vineyard Haven, The Factor, Pyro, Jersey Town, Caleb's Posse, and Aikenite wouldn't have won the Sprint?

And just because they "all couldn't have won", does that justify the ducking and diving?

It simply doesn't force them to run in the Classic. Blame the connections if you're looking for a scapegoat.

The fact that the race carries instant Grade 1 status when it should not, has Breeder's Cup attached to its name when it is no more than a glorified undercard race is what detracts from the Classic, because one or maybe two Classic and Sprint horses looking for an easier race--the antithesis of what the BC should be about--inevitably reroute to it.

It is a bad race, and the results of the runnings thus far prove the point.

[Port Conway Lane]

[quote=RolloTomasi;1042483]

Wrong. Preakness winner Shackleford, Travers/Woodward winner Alpha, Hollywood Gold Cup winner Mast Track, Goodwood winner Well Armed, Travers winner Golden Ticket, Donn winner Hymn Book, Hollywood Gold Cup winner Rail Trip, Haskell winner Verrazano all had credentials for the Classic.

This is contrary to your point that there are bad horses in the mile. Or are you claiming that because the winners of the mile were bad horses that the race was bad, or the field quality was bad? Or that the good horses in the mile were placed at the wrong distance? I fail to follow your reasoning, it is contradictory.

Ok. So how do you know Goldencents, Gayego, Vineyard Haven, The Factor, Pyro, Jersey Town, Caleb's Posse, and Aikenite wouldn't have won the Sprint?

First of all two of those won the mile so they have no regrets. As for the others who knows? The fact is you named multiple horses in the same year that should have run in the sprint. My point is that not all of the ones you named could have won in the same year. So yes I could say that some of the ones you mentioned would not have won, take your choice.

And just because they "all couldn't have won", does that justify the ducking and diving?

The mile gives trainers an option to run their horses at a distance that may fit their horse best. Are you telling me that American racehorses are either a
6 furlong sprinter or a 1 1/4 mile router with nothing in between?

The fact that the race carries instant Grade 1 status when it should not, has Breeder's Cup attached to its name when it is no more than a glorified undercard race is what detracts from the Classic, because one or maybe two Classic and Sprint horses looking for an easier race--the antithesis of what the BC should be about--inevitably reroute to it.

Back to the horses you named at the top. For whatever reason the connections chose to run in the mile. It doesn't mean that the absence of the mile would ensure their participation in the Classic.(especially Verrazano)

It is a bad race, and the results of the runnings thus far prove the point.

Prove what point?? You named both quality runners and others that weren't.
Bad horses winning and Quality horses winning. Bad horses losing to good horses and vice versa. What exactly makes it a bad race and how do the results prove anything?

[cakes44]

I love the BC dirt mile. Also, I doubt there will ever be many people arguing to get rid of the Turf Mile and still keeping the Turf Sprint.