Ortiz Bros

[jms62]

How many times does an Ortiz brother on a heavy favorite lose to his brother on a longer price horse. How these 2 are allowed to ride in the same race is infuriating. Of course it's all on the up and up they would NEVER Collude on such a thing.

[gamblin4ever]

1st 2 races today Jose wins with Irad 2nd.
You need to include both if you like one of them.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

1st 2 races today Jose wins with Irad 2nd.
You need to include both if you like one of them.

There is an exacta angle there especially when one has an odds on horse.

[gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by jms62

There is an exacta angle there especially when one has an odds on horse.

True, you can use that angle and make a little money

[NavalOrange]

Originally Posted by jms62

How many times does an Ortiz brother on a heavy favorite lose to his brother on a longer price horse. How these 2 are allowed to ride in the same race is infuriating. Of course it's all on the up and up they would NEVER Collude on such a thing.

Not sure about your logic here or what you are trying to say. It does not matter what the odds are. They get paid based on the purse not the odds, so they would be splitting the same amount of money regardless of who wins or comes in second.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by NavalOrange

Not sure about your logic here or what you are trying to say. It does not matter what the odds are. They get paid based on the purse not the odds, so they would be splitting the same amount of money regardless of who wins or comes in second.

I am sure they would never stiff an odds on favorite in a cheap purse race in order for an associate to make a betting score that far exceeds the 10% they were to make on the purse. I am also sure they would never ride in a manner to burn out or interfere in any way a contending horse when one or the other is on a live horse and theirs not so much.

The above NEVER EVER could possibly happen under any circumstances nor has it ever happened in the history of the sport. The perception that there is potential for such shenanigans by allowing both to ride in the same race is simply nonsensical thinking.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by NavalOrange

Not sure about your logic here or what you are trying to say. It does not matter what the odds are. They get paid based on the purse not the odds, so they would be splitting the same amount of money regardless of who wins or comes in second.

i think everyone knows exactly what he's trying to say.
i wouldn't go out on this limb with the insinuations, but if jms wishes to...
they finished 1-2 in ny last year as riders. imo just sibling rivalry, and nothing more nefarious.
but then, i always give everyone benefit of the doubt.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think everyone knows exactly what he's trying to say.
i wouldn't go out on this limb with the insinuations, but if jms wishes to...
they finished 1-2 in ny last year as riders. imo just sibling rivalry, and nothing more nefarious.
but then, i always give everyone benefit of the doubt.

If you or anyone think I am insinuating any nefarious activity is going on here than that is on you. My point is the situation shouldn't exist where there can be any perception of brothers working together even if that perception is flat out wrong. Does that clarify things? When one finishes second on an Odds on and his brother wins there are people that are going to say WTF and that perception is not good for the sport. If it happens too often that is something our overzealous media will run with and you know the media convicts without a trial.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by jms62

If you or anyone think I am insinuating any nefarious activity is going on here than that is on you. My point is the situation shouldn't exist where there can be any perception of brothers working together even if that perception is flat out wrong. Does that clarify things? When one finishes second on an Odds on and his brother wins there are people that are going to say WTF and that perception is not good for the sport. If it happens too often that is something our overzealous media will run with and you know the media convicts without a trial.

Not sure what you want the tracks to do. Ban them from riding in the same race? Even if there were validity to what you're very clearly suggesting, it would be an extremely difficult thing to prove.

I wouldn't put anything past anyone at the racetrack, but IMO the only reason we might think we see a pattern is because they have the same last name. Guys give questionable rides every single day, but they don't have the same last name as each other, so it doesn't register in our minds as a trend.

Cornelio Velasquez has been riding at almost a criminally incompetent level for most of this year and I'm way more concerned about that than making it so two terrific jockeys can't ride against each other because of conjecture.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

If you or anyone think I am insinuating any nefarious activity is going on here than that is on you. My point is the situation shouldn't exist where there can be any perception of brothers working together even if that perception is flat out wrong. Does that clarify things? When one finishes second on an Odds on and his brother wins there are people that are going to say WTF and that perception is not good for the sport. If it happens too often that is something our overzealous media will run with and you know the media convicts without a trial.

i stand corrected than if you aren't suggesting anything untoward.
but no, i don't think they should be barred from both riding in a race, that's ridiculous.
i've never seen it brought up by anyone anywhere ever, regarding such a thing...until this thread.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i stand corrected than if you aren't suggesting anything untoward.
but no, i don't think they should be barred from both riding in a race, that's ridiculous.
i've never seen it brought up by anyone anywhere ever, regarding such a thing...until this thread.

"Ridiculous"? You do realize that some jurisdictions do not allow a husband and wife ride in the same race.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

"Ridiculous"? You do realize that some jurisdictions do not allow a husband and wife ride in the same race.

yes, ridiculous.

i don't think anyone should be treated with suspicion until they give a damn good reason for it. being related isn't a reason, imo, to look at someone at all askance.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

every jocks room cuts it up..imo

[jms62]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Not sure what you want the tracks to do. Ban them from riding in the same race? Even if there were validity to what you're very clearly suggesting, it would be an extremely difficult thing to prove.

I wouldn't put anything past anyone at the racetrack, but IMO the only reason we might think we see a pattern is because they have the same last name. Guys give questionable rides every single day, but they don't have the same last name as each other, so it doesn't register in our minds as a trend.

Cornelio Velasquez has been riding at almost a criminally incompetent level for most of this year and I'm way more concerned about that than making it so two terrific jockeys can't ride against each other because of conjecture.

I did some queries and I think you are right. They faced each other 71 times last year when one was Odds on. 16 Times the Odds On finished 2nd and only 5 time The Longer Ortiz won (3 times in the last month though). Nothing amiss here.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by jms62

I did some queries and I think you are right. They faced each other 71 times last year when one was Odds on. 16 Times the Odds On finished 2nd and only 5 time The Longer Ortiz won (3 times in the last month though). Nothing amiss here.

And two of those happened yesterday with the odds-on favorite running horribly. Bankers Holiday had no excuse whatsoever when he took dead aim at the 1/4 pole on the pacesetters and hung like a chandelier, and Behrnik's Bank was a shadow of herself given what we had previously seen at Penn National.

[ADJMK]

Originally Posted by jms62

If you or anyone think I am insinuating any nefarious activity is going on here than that is on you. My point is the situation shouldn't exist where there can be any perception of brothers working together even if that perception is flat out wrong. Does that clarify things? When one finishes second on an Odds on and his brother wins there are people that are going to say WTF and that perception is not good for the sport. If it happens too often that is something our overzealous media will run with and you know the media convicts without a trial.

What about the perception when trainers run multiple entries in a race and the odds on runs up the track while his uncoupled entry mate romps at a big price. Nothing nefarious ever going on here either. Never understood how tracks could allow uncoupled entries just so there wouldn't be short fields.
Racing has lost many fans and handle because of the perceived perceptions.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ADJMK

What about the perception when trainers run multiple entries in a race and the odds on runs up the track while his uncoupled entry mate romps at a big price. Nothing nefarious ever going on here either. Never understood how tracks could allow uncoupled entries just so there wouldn't be short fields.
Racing has lost many fans and handle because of the perceived perceptions.

The trainer doesnt make the odds.
There are times when trainers are asked to enter horses just so a race can fill. Its one of the many reasons why it is called gambling instead of winning.
But i disagree that this is what puts people off gambling. High take out doesnt help, and there are many other options for gambling.

[declansharbor]

Danzig, do you bet? You seem to always have the answers, I was wondering if your knowledge spills over into the betting pools each week.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

Danzig, do you bet? You seem to always have the answers, I was wondering if your knowledge spills over into the betting pools each week.

i do on occasion.

If Jockeys who are brothers cant ride in the same race then trainers entering more than one horse in the same race should not happen either