An easy question......with a hard answer.

[taxicab]

2015 BC Turf winner Found just took down the Arc @ Chantilly on October 2nd.
Her next race is going to be in the Group 1 Champion Stakes @ Ascot on October 15th.
That's a pretty quick wheel back in two grueling races.......
So why is it in Europe/Australia etc. top quality horses aren't handled the same way (with kid gloves) as they are in North America ?
Just take a look at this years BC,many top quality types have skipped Gr.1's/2's they would of been favored in(and probably won) to go in the Cup.
So simply put.......what gives,how come we don't run our best horses the same way they do in other parts of the world ?

[cakes44]

Found is a serious race horse. It would be awesome if she came over and competed in the BC Turf.

I'd still bet against her though.

[Kasept]

Actually, an easy answer. Apples and Oranges. The campaigns of International horses running on the grass in short seasons aren't comparable to that of North American horses running on dirt over longer calendar periods. Turf horses that are loping along for front half of races and finishing with a rush aren't under the stress and physical toll dirt horses are running hard and fast for whatever distance.

I know it's clever and fashionable to suggest that North American horses just can't hold up like the so superior International brethren, but it's a fallacious assertion.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I know it's clever and fashionable to suggest that North American horses just can't hold up like the so superior International brethren, but it's a fallacious assertion.

Essentially, the difference is that North American horses are trashed by their handlers. They are run or trained year round with no dedicated time off (unless injured) and run/trained under more unforgiving conditions (hard surfaces, tight turns, one direction, housed in urban areas). Not a particularly admirable method of conducting the sport.

There is something to be said for a delineated season between April-October, where both the horses and the racecourses get some respite. This imparts some durability and longevity that is woefully lacking here. Hence, over there, you can maintain a healthy a sprint division, a miler division, a middle distance division (10-12f), and stayer division. Here, you have about 75% of the races carded at sprint distances and a smattering of 8.5f and 9f events--all with dwindling field sizes. There are only 4 Grade 1 10f races left for open company and there might be only a pair of Grade 2s (Suburban, Hawthorne Gold Cup). If this is the tradeoff for year round racing, I'll take the former.

Some international spots still hold National Hunt and all-weather races during the winter months, but with essentially a different horse population. So its not like the sport is on hiatus by any means if people are solely interested in wagering events.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Actually, an easy answer. Apples and Oranges. The campaigns of International horses running on the grass in short seasons aren't comparable to that of North American horses running on dirt over longer calendar periods. Turf horses that are loping along for front half of races and finishing with a rush aren't under the stress and physical toll dirt horses are running hard and fast for whatever distance.

I know it's clever and fashionable to suggest that North American horses just can't hold up like the so superior International brethren, but it's a fallacious assertion.

Yeah our famous turf trainers run their high quality stock in an apples to oranges way to their dirt stock. Phil Damato forgot the name of his multiple graded winner on your show because its been so long since he ran last. Maybe Midnight Storm isnt a loper? When was the last time Brown turned one of his lopers around in 2 weeks after winning a Graded race? I love ya and have mad respect for you but have a heart. Clement turned Lull around in a few weeks(shockingly) after she fell but save that when was the last time he turned one around in 14 days? You ever see Shug wheel back in 2 weeks after winning a serious graded turf race like the Arc, with a filly no less? Exactly who are the trainers that run their high quality turf graded stock on less then 30 days ESPECIALLY off a graded win. Oh and there used to be US trainers that ran their dirt horses frequently, but the vernacular now is all good horses not just the looping turf horses need a minimum of a month to recover. Oh and by the way a month is minimum, 60+ days for horses like Frosted, Curlina, Cavorting, By the Moon etc. I watched Golden Man win 2 stakes in 3 days.

Let's call it the way it is and let's not apologize.

Zenyatta used to bearly gallop for a mile in the exact same way that Found lopes the first mile. Zenyatta wheel back in 2 weeks? What did Honor Code do gun from the gate or lope for 3/4's of a race? Honor Code ran 60 days after Met in Whitney and then wait 55+ days to run in Kelso..He was a loper stone cold closer didnt have a lick of taxing grueling speed, whichs seems to zap horses from recovery. 2 examples of serious grade1 lopers who NEEDED 60 days. Sherriff's and Shug are world class, some of the best trainers ever but lets not suggest this hasnt reached the absurd in States.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Yeah our famous turf trainers run their high quality stock in an apples to oranges way to their dirt stock. Phil Damato forgot the name of his multiple graded winner on your show because its been so long since he ran last. Maybe Midnight Storm isnt a loper? When was the last time Brown turned one of his lopers around in 2 weeks after winning a Graded race? I love ya and have mad respect for you but have a heart. Clement turned Lull around in a few weeks(shockingly) after she fell but save that when was the last time he turned one around in 14 days? You ever see Shug wheel back in 2 weeks after winning a serious graded turf race like the Arc, with a filly no less? Exactly who are the trainers that run their high quality turf graded stock on less then 30 days ESPECIALLY off a graded win. Oh and there used to be US trainers that ran their dirt horses frequently, but the vernacular now is all good horses not just the looping turf horses need a minimum of a month to recover. Oh and by the way a month is minimum, 60+ days for horses like Frosted, Curlina, Cavorting, By the Moon etc. I watched Golden Man win 2 stakes in 3 days.

Let's call it the way it is and let's not apologize.

Zenyatta used to bearly gallop for a mile in the exact same way that Found lopes the first mile. Zenyatta wheel back in 2 weeks? What did Honor Code do gun from the gate or lope for 3/4's of a race? Honor Code ran 60 days after Met in Whitney and then wait 55+ days to run in Kelso..He was a loper stone cold closer didnt have a lick of taxing grueling speed, whichs seems to zap horses from recovery. 2 examples of serious grade1 lopers who NEEDED 60 days. Sherriff's and Shug are world class, some of the best trainers ever but lets not suggest this hasnt reached the absurd in States.

Excellent

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Essentially, the difference is that North American horses are trashed by their handlers. They are run or trained year round with no dedicated time off (unless injured) and run/trained under more unforgiving conditions (hard surfaces, tight turns, one direction, housed in urban areas). Not a particularly admirable method of conducting the sport.

There is something to be said for a delineated season between April-October, where both the horses and the racecourses get some respite. This imparts some durability and longevity that is woefully lacking here. Hence, over there, you can maintain a healthy a sprint division, a miler division, a middle distance division (10-12f), and stayer division. Here, you have about 75% of the races carded at sprint distances and a smattering of 8.5f and 9f events--all with dwindling field sizes. There are only 4 Grade 1 10f races left for open company and there might be only a pair of Grade 2s (Suburban, Hawthorne Gold Cup). If this is the tradeoff for year round racing, I'll take the former.

Some international spots still hold National Hunt and all-weather races during the winter months, but with essentially a different horse population. So its not like the sport is on hiatus by any means if people are solely interested in wagering events.

Excellent

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Actually, an easy answer. Apples and Oranges. The campaigns of International horses running on the grass in short seasons aren't comparable to that of North American horses running on dirt over longer calendar periods. Turf horses that are loping along for front half of races and finishing with a rush aren't under the stress and physical toll dirt horses are running hard and fast for whatever distance.

I know it's clever and fashionable to suggest that North American horses just can't hold up like the so superior International brethren, but it's a fallacious assertion.

i want to ask if this is the case, why is it a relatively new phenomenon? Out horses used to go full seasons, running from February to October and running frequently. This was done without the technological advances we have today. It was routine to see 9+ starts from top horses in a year. What I wonder is if the bigger issue is the amounts of money invested and reduces willingness to risk lowering value by losing? Can't lose if you don't race.

I think that the problems you see in racing here are problems you see across all sports. The new era thinking is that less is better. I grew up watching baseball as many of you probably did. It was customary to see pitchers start 35 games and pitch well over 250 innings per year. Now, if a guy get to 200, it's a milestone. You didn't see so called quality starts being five innings. I see guys pulled out of games while throwing no hitters. Could you imagine a manager coming to the mound to pull a Nolan Ryan or Bob Gipson in some of the situations we see today? It's the same in basketball. It's routine to see guys sit out multiple games per season while healthy. Just for rest. It wasn't that long ago that Michael Jordan at 40 was playing 82 games in his final season.

Just ramblings from me be it seems quite odd that as science and technology has advanced and training and medicine has gotten more sophisticated, our athletes, including horses, are able to do less and less.

[Pants II]

The courses in Europe for Group 1's are typically far superior to ours. The turns are smoother, the stretches are longer and you can land a 757 on quite a few of the courses. Less chance of traffic trouble which greatly reduces risk of injury.


Some turf courses in America are dangerous. Especially during a drought.

Another disadvantage American turf runners have is the sheer panic of precipitation. This was abused habitually with tracks that had synthetic.

Can't get any consistency when turf courses in America are treated like a preservation site.

[King Glorious]

Found ended up second today. A really great day of racing over in England.