Did i go too far?

[Byebyemermaid]

Just had a little incident with our soon to be 8 year old son and it kind of was the straw that broke the camels back.So i instituted RULES.I took away his tv and stereo as well as all computer privileges till this coming Friday night.I also told him if he asks when he can get his stuff back,one more day will be added for everytime he asks.He must pick up better after himself.When asked to do something it's to be done.What is put in front of him for dinner must be eaten or at least tried and pizza is limited to 3 days a week.If he doesen't want to eat he may be excused.You know that only saying you'll never be like your parents it's BULL$HIT.My folks came from Europe and my brother and i understood discipline.Did i go too far?Any opinions or comments are welcome.Thank you.Mark.

[Danzig]

no, not too far.
kids should be taught from the get go that #1, this isn't a restaurant. learning to eat what's for dinner is good manners, after all, you don't want jr to go to a friends for dinner and sneer at their offering.
like my dad told me, your kids have to learn good behavior at home, so they don't act up away--how often do you see kids running around acting like crazed banshees at a restaurant? it's cause they do it at home.
kids should be given chores, easier for younger, slightly tougher for older. how else will they learn how to clean up? i read that college kids don't even know how to do their own laundry!
kids are part of the household, and should be part of taking care of it. the best thing you can do is teach your child he is part of all solutions--worst is to raise him that he is a little lord and you and wife his servants.

good luck!

also, kids need routine just like all of us. so whatever routine they learn, good luck changing it!

[brianwspencer]

i obviously don't have kids, so my opinion may not be quite what you're looking for, but i don't see anything you did as going too far.

having grown up in a military household, what your son has been punished with sounds like a walk in the park, quite frankly

if he's been giving you trouble and not listening and not eating his dinner, what you've said you've done here sounds just about right. it's enough punishment to knock some sense into him for the moment, but not enough to be the terrible, far too overbearing, disciplinarian father figure.

authority figures aren't going to go away as he gets older -- so he may as well learn to follow the rules now, or you're going to be in for a long haul of miserable parent-teacher conferences in the next ten years. not to mention respecting authority goes a long way in the workplace as well -- doesn't mean being a pushover, but knowing who's running the show is a huge lesson to learn and you've got to teach him that or he won't ever know until it's too late.

not sure if that helps you feel any better or not.

[Downthestretch55]

Mark,
I hope you don't mind me putting in my two pennies worth.
I've dealt with similar situations.
Yes, children need clearly defined structure (rules).
But by you placing yourself in the "authority" position, you win, your son loses, and, sorry to say, next time he sees a lapse, he'll be looking for a way to "beat" you so that he can have a sense of "winning".
Once this happens, it quickly becomes a "lose x lose"...you don't get what you want (disobedient son) and he doesn't get what he wants (authoritarian father).
So, allow me to suggest a way do find a better outcome...a "win x win".
It starts with communicating what you want (pick up stuff, eat food), and your son sharing what he will want so that if he pleases you (gives you a win), that he can get something positive. Let him say what it is, within reason.
Children interact in a positive environment where the adult is in control, but the child senses that this is in his best interest. Simply, it comes down to not demanding, but rather agreeing. Children really do want to contribute to the harmony within their families. They just have to see that it is in their interest to do so. It's "wanting" to do something rather than having that something demanded. It's up to the adult to create the attitude, cause, afterall, you're smarter, and you're the parent.
If you can find a book titled "Parent Effectiveness Training", it might be worth your time to read.
Good luck. If I can help you in any way, pm me and I'll give you my e-mail.
Wayne

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Mark,
I hope you don't mind me putting in my two pennies worth.
I've dealt with similar situations.
Yes, children need clearly defined structure (rules).
But by you placing yourself in the "authority" position, you win, your son loses, and, sorry to say, next time he sees a lapse, he'll be looking for a way to "beat" you so that he can have a sense of "winning".
Once this happens, it quickly becomes a "lose x lose"...you don't get what you want (disobedient son) and he doesn't get what he wants (authoritarian father).
So, allow me to suggest a way do find a better outcome...a "win x win".
It starts with communicating what you want (pick up stuff, eat food), and you son sharing what he will want so that if he pleases you (gives you a win), that he can get something positive. Let him say what it is, within reason.
Children interact in a positive environment where the adult is in control, but the child senses that this is in his best interest. Simply, it comes down to not demanding, but rather agreeing. Children really do want to contribute to the harmony within their families. They just have to see that it is in their interest to do so. It's "wanting" to do something rather than having that something demanded. It's up to the adult to create the attitude, cause, afterall, you're smarter, and you're the parent.
If you can find a book titled "Parent Effectiveness Training", it might be worth your time to read.
Good luck. If I can help you in any way, pm me and I'll give you my e-mail.
Wayne

i disagree. the parent IS the authority. children need guidelines, and an adult willing to be the 'bad guy' to make sure kids do what is expected. there is reward for doing what your supposed to, and punishment when you don't. the last thing you should ever do however is make a rule, establish the risk if you don't follow, and then back off on the punishment. in other words, don't take back the punishment or cave in. you just took away your own authority.
also, never threaten a punishment you and your child knows full well isn't going to happen. for example, when my mother screamed if i didn't do such and such, she would kill me. obviously that wouldn't happen. i also find that a quiet firm voice works wonders, where screaming gets you nothing but a sore throat.

[Danzig]

yeah, you have to tailor everthing to each child. what works for one won't work for another.
for example, my daughter loves to read. she'll read all day and night if you let her. one time i punished her by taking her books away. he friends were amazed. let me get this straight they said. your mom WON'T let you read? but to take away tv, computer, etc would have done NOTHING. it got her attention.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

FWIW, imho, I think what Wayne suggests is decent advice <gasp> for children who are a bit older than your son.

But there is a fine line, a very fine line, between being a parent and being a friend. Parents are supposed to be parents. This is not to say that they cannot have great relationships with their kids, but at age 8 the parent needs to be a parent, not a friend. Parents should not have to barter with their children if their children are being unruly and not following the rules. You (meaning the child) follow the rules because you are supposed to and then you will get treated with proper respect and get proper rewards. You do not follow rules just because your parent allowed you to barter with them.

That's not parenting in my opinion, that's what i do with my friends when i try to get them to buy me a beer when i'm out of money.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

But there is a fine line, a very fine line, between being a parent and being a friend. Parents are supposed to be parents. This is not to say that they cannot have great relationships with their kids, but at age 8 the parent needs to be a parent, not a friend. Parents should not have to barter with their children if their children are being unruly and not following the rules. You (meaning the child) follow the rules because you are supposed to and then you will get treated with proper respect and get proper rewards. You do not follow rules just because your parent allowed you to barter with them.

That's not parenting in my opinion, that's what i do with my friends when i try to get them to buy me a beer when i'm out of money.

lol that's very funny!


yes, absolutely you must be a parent. kids (hopefully) only have two of them, and they need to do what is a very tough job. kids can make all the friends they want or need. parents need to be parents first. when your kids are grown, then you can be 'friends'.

[packerbacker7964]

My God People. Beat their ass. Plain and simple. When me and my wife moved to Michigan and heard the word Timeout. I was like Timwout only occurs Down South when the belt,switch or belt your parent was beating you with broke. Timeout my arse. You knew you were in trouble back in the day when you heard your daddy pulling his belt threw the loops fix'n to whip your arse. Timeout...... kids these days don't know how good they got it. I've worked since the age of 12 (some of you know what I'm talking about) I never had to ask my parents for money growing up because I always wanted more for myself.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by packerbacker7964

My God People. Beat their ass. Plain and simple. When me and my wife moved to Michigan and heard the word Timeout. I was like Timwout only occurs Down South when the belt,switch or belt your parent was beating you with broke. Timeout my arse. You knew you were in trouble back in the day when you heard your daddy pulling his belt threw the loops fix'n to whip your arse. Timeout...... kids these days don't know how good they got it. I've worked since the age of 12 (some of you know what I'm talking about) I never had to ask my parents for money growing up because I always wanted more for myself.

lol
i never counted to my kids, never had timeout. altho they did spend their fair share of time standing in the corner.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Aye, I agree that it would be inappropriate for an 8yo. What I meant was, it may work better for someone in their mid-teens. I definitely think doing this with young children would be bartering; whereas, older children may have the brain development to be a bit more discerning (ie view "rewards" as a result of not doing x-task, but a continuing process of building their parents' trust in their decision-making, etc. ).

but may i say in wayne's theory's defense, that i attribute my now uncanny and quite flawless ability to barter/trick my friends into buying me beer when my cash flow is gone to nothing but learning to barter with my mom at age 13.

[GenuineRisk]

Not that my opinion counts for a hill of beans because I don't have kids either (though I was one once), but I think I fall somewhere in between Danzig and DTS in my thoughts, Mark.

First off, I don't think you were too harsh-- the only privileges you took away were electronic entertainment ones, and frankly, entertainment is your reward for getting your necessary things done. And you gave him a set day of when privileges would come back, so you established a structure. I think discipline, fairly administered is a good thing, and also I think makes for a secure upbringing.

What I would encourage is making what he needs to maintain his entertainment privileges a set list-- where I think parents can sometimes be unfair is when they continue to add things onto the "you must do" list, without any reward or appreciation for the kid accomplishing the things they originally told him to do. You know, sort of piling more work on top of work. If there are other things he needs to do, find some other privilege that he has to earn for those things.

I'm a fan of not forcing kids to finish what's on their plates-- kudos to you for saying he has to taste the food, but not necessarily finish it (speaking as a kid who had an ongoing war with my mother over eating that eventually turned into an eating disorder, the less importance put on food, the better). Mind you, if he doesn't eat, and he's hungry later, you can either let him go to bed hungry, thereby teaching him he'll have to eat when the family does, or let him make his own meal (and clean up after himself)- the trick there being keeping things you don't want him eating late at night out of the house.

Though I would still make him stay at the table, even if he doesn't want to eat-- families who can manage to eat together should take advantage of that time together, I think, even if everyone doesn't finish at the same time.

The main point that DTS raised that I think is very valuable is to make sure to praise him for what he does right-- if he does a good job keeping his room clean, or whatever, be sure to tell him how nice it looks. DTS is right in that most kids do want to please (even as they're busy challenging authority) and positive reinforcement can work wonders. Don't treat the things he does right as "Well, that's no more than he should do"- make sure he knows you're happy about it. I don't think he needs stuff as a reward, necessarily, because I think that makes us connect doing good with getting things, rather than bringing some happiness to other people. Which feels better than getting stuff, anyway, it just takes a while to learn that for some of us.

And I'm a fan of allowances, tied into accomplishing chores. I did chores for my spending money AND learned a lot about managing my money at the same time- my parents were NOT an open wallet if I ran out of money. Plus it made me eager to get a part-time job once I was old enough.

(Of course, I was such a nerd growing up, I got punished by not being allowed to read books!)

My two cents (more like a quarter at this point).

[randallscott35]

No kid should have a tv in his room anwyay. Pizza 3 days a week is too much as it is.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

lol
i never counted to my kids, never had timeout. altho they did spend their fair share of time standing in the corner.

I did get spanked, occasionally, though it was always after fair warning, and NEVER in public. And I got time-outs, but after throwing my fit, I tended to fall asleep during the time-out (hmmm... I seem not to have changed that behavior much as a grownup. Sleeeeep gooood).

Your daughter sounds like a girl after my own heart, Deb. Oh, she's going to have so many wonderful books to enjoy throughout her life... my brother doesn't like to read, and sometimes I feel bad for him about that, though to each his or her own. I imagine he doesn't feel he's missing anything.

[Downthestretch55]

I'll stick with what I've said.
It comes down to creating a loving environment rather than a confrontational one.
It worked for my family.
Get the book. Also, your wife has to read it. When you are both consistant, the child can't play "games"
It's not about "bartering", not anything punitive (that comes from frustration).
Positive attitudes grow in a loving environment, not a threatening one.
In a way, ask yourself, do you do things out of fear or because you enjoy doing them? Children have the same motivations.
You and your family will be much happier with the creation of win-win outcomes. Trust me, it works....all ages over 5.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Not that my opinion counts for a hill of beans because I don't have kids either (though I was one once), but I think I fall somewhere in between Danzig and DTS in my thoughts, Mark.

First off, I don't think you were too harsh-- the only privileges you took away were electronic entertainment ones, and frankly, entertainment is your reward for getting your necessary things done. And you gave him a set day of when privileges would come back, so you established a structure. I think discipline, fairly administered is a good thing, and also I think makes for a secure upbringing.

What I would encourage is making what he needs to maintain his entertainment privileges a set list-- where I think parents can sometimes be unfair is when they continue to add things onto the "you must do" list, without any reward or appreciation for the kid accomplishing the things they originally told him to do. You know, sort of piling more work on top of work. If there are other things he needs to do, find some other privilege that he has to earn for those things.

I'm a fan of not forcing kids to finish what's on their plates-- kudos to you for saying he has to taste the food, but not necessarily finish it (speaking as a kid who had an ongoing war with my mother over eating that eventually turned into an eating disorder, the less importance put on food, the better). Mind you, if he doesn't eat, and he's hungry later, you can either let him go to bed hungry, thereby teaching him he'll have to eat when the family does, or let him make his own meal (and clean up after himself)- the trick there being keeping things you don't want him eating late at night out of the house.

Though I would still make him stay at the table, even if he doesn't want to eat-- families who can manage to eat together should take advantage of that time together, I think, even if everyone doesn't finish at the same time.

The main point that DTS raised that I think is very valuable is to make sure to praise him for what he does right-- if he does a good job keeping his room clean, or whatever, be sure to tell him how nice it looks. DTS is right in that most kids do want to please (even as they're busy challenging authority) and positive reinforcement can work wonders. Don't treat the things he does right as "Well, that's no more than he should do"- make sure he knows you're happy about it. I don't think he needs stuff as a reward, necessarily, because I think that makes us connect doing good with getting things, rather than bringing some happiness to other people. Which feels better than getting stuff, anyway, it just takes a while to learn that for some of us.

And I'm a fan of allowances, tied into accomplishing chores. I did chores for my spending money AND learned a lot about managing my money at the same time- my parents were NOT an open wallet if I ran out of money. Plus it made me eager to get a part-time job once I was old enough.

(Of course, I was such a nerd growing up, I got punished by not being allowed to read books!)

My two cents (more like a quarter at this point).

i don't make my kids eat what's served. i spend many a time gagging down food when i was growing up, as you ate EVERYTHING whether you liked it or not.
but i don't prepare special meals for anyone who doesn't like what's fixed either.
we usually have enough variety in salad, veggies and the like that no one goes hungry.
and positive re-inforcement goes a long way. no way a kid should only hear his parents voice when they are barking out orders or telling them what they did wrong.
my kids and i have a lot of fun together, we cut up a lot. BUT, i am their parent first and foremost.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

pretty good ..just dont fold lake a cheap claimer..you and your other must be united..or your toast.. and a good spanking doesent hurt..kids these days..lol

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

(Of course, I was such a nerd growing up, I got punished by not being allowed to read books!)

I agree with absolutely everything you said Nicole...but this made me laugh...when I was little I lost my "reading lamp" and had to leave the door to my bedroom open at night so I couldn't read all night because Bedtime was bedtime.. I can remember my mother talking to the other mothers and their disbelief that she actually punished me for reading

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I agree with absolutely everything you said Nicole...but this made me laugh...when I was little I lost my "reading lamp" and had to leave the door to my bedroom open at night so I couldn't read all night because Bedtime was bedtime.. I can remember my mother talking to the other mothers and their disbelief that she actually punished me for reading

exactly the same with my daughter. people are baffled that i forbid her reading.
but to take away the tv would mean nothing, same as ps2 and computer. she would just read.
i on the other hand.....my mother would punish me be confining me to my room. a fate worse than death.
so, what did i do when not allowed outside? THEN i would read. my poor mother, i was a humming bundle of energy. she hated when it rained, my brother and i drove her nuts when stuck inside.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I agree with absolutely everything you said Nicole...but this made me laugh...when I was little I lost my "reading lamp" and had to leave the door to my bedroom open at night so I couldn't read all night because Bedtime was bedtime.. I can remember my mother talking to the other mothers and their disbelief that she actually punished me for reading

Pais,
I hear you. Of course all parents want their kids to love reading. You sound like there was something that happened to discourage you...but look at what you're doing, all the time. Right?
Here's a little story about a friend that was really frustrated about his dog, actually, a puppy. Being a "dog lover" like me, you might see what I mean.
So, he came over to my house with his little pooch, very frustrated and ready to give her away or bring her to the shelter.
I said, what's the problem?
He said, she doesn't come when I call her.
So, I said, let her go, lets see.
He took her off the leash, she ran away, curious about all the smells and enjoying her run. Ahh freedom.
So he calls, Here MOLLY!
No response.
HERE MOLLY!!!
She's like...go to hell...
HERE MOLLY!!!!!!!!! Louder.

This went on about fifteen times. He just kept getting louder but never made a move in her direction. Talk about frustration.
So, I whispered, just be quiet. Wait and watch.

After a while, she decided to come back.
What do you think he did?
He hit her hard on her ass and said, "WHY DIDN"T YOU COME BACK TO ME THE FIRST TIME I CALLED YOU, MOLLY?" Smack!

If you were a puppy, would you come back to that?
She never did again either, for quite a while.
Then the task was in the retraining.
Not the puppy, the "master".

Here, when she comes back, give her a little puppy biscuit and a pat on the head. Tell her you're happy she returned.
It didn't take long. She learned quickly.
Sometimes, dogs are smarter than people.