NFL HoF

Deion goes down a few notches for this being mistaken for a minstrel show...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJWSm13LBh8

[randallscott35]

Curtis will get in next year

[ddthetide]

[quote=dalakhani;750505]

Originally Posted by ddthetide

Ray Guy changed the game and made the punter part of the defense. anyone my age grew up learning to punt a football from Ray Guy! about mid-way through his career he took over the kick-off duties. he was also the #3 QB. he was an excellent athlete.
deion sanders is a freaking joke! he has yet to tackle anyone on a running play. his technique was poor but his speed made up for his mistakes.[/QUOTE

Just to be clear, are you saying that Ray Guy was a better athlete than deion?

Deion is arguably the best corner ever to play and without argument top 5. He defined "shutdown corner" and literally took away an entire side of the field.

If you really believe that Deion was a joke of a player, then you are letting your own personal bias get in the way of objective thought. If you think Ray Guy deserves the hof before deion, that is just a hopelessly bad opinion.

deion was a poor CB. he was constently out of postion but his speed made up for it. deion did NOT play the run. Rod Woodson was an excellent CB. Woodson could cover, blitz and play the run. deion was a good kick returner.
i didn't say Ray Guy was a better athlete, i said he was a excellent athlete and should have been in the HOF LONG before this. and there is NO Way deion should be in the HOF and Ray Guy not.

[slotdirt]

Deion was obviously great at what he did, but first ballot hall of famer when guys like Carter aren't in and guy like Art Monk took like 37 years to get enshrinement? I think not.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

There are, generally speaking, few baseball players who deserve to get in that don't (Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker excepted), but there are also a massive amount of players in the baseball HOF who have no business being there, more so than the football version. Maybe massive is too strong a word, but there are at least 20 players in the current baseball HOF who I would argue don't belong. I'm looking at you, Orlando Cepeda.

There are a lot of undeserving guys put in by the veterans committee a long time ago. The problem with WAR is that it incorporates defense which doesn't have many identifiable stats which is what the vast majority of voters base their votes on.

Catfish Hunter does deserve to be in

[slotdirt]

Don't get me started on Catfish. I think he's easily the worst pitcher in the HOF, and you disagree. No need to rehash that argument.

[Cannon Shell]

I thought Deion Sanders was an easy choice

1991 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly
1991 1st Team All-Conf. UPI
1991 2nd Team All-NFL Associated Press
1991 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers
1991 1st Team All-NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc.
1991 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News
1992 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly
1992 1st Team All-NFL Associated Press
1992 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers
1992 1st Team All-NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc.
1992 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News
1993 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly
1993 1st Team All-Conf. UPI
1993 1st Team All-NFL Associated Press
1993 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers
1993 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News
1994 Defensive Player of the year Associated Press
1994 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly
1994 1st Team All-Conf. UPI
1994 1st Team All-NFL Associated Press
1994 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers
1994 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News
1995 2nd Team All-Conf. UPI
1995 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News
1996 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly
1996 1st Team All-Conf. UPI
1996 1st Team All-NFL Associated Press
1996 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers
1996 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News
1997 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly
1997 1st Team All-NFL Associated Press
1997 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers
1997 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News
1998 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly
1998 1st Team All-NFL Associated Press
1998 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers
1998 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News
1999 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly
1999 2nd Team All-NFL Associated Press
1999 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Don't get me started on Catfish. I think he's easily the worst pitcher in the HOF, and you disagree. No need to rehash that argument.

How anyone could possibly rank him below Dizzy Dean or Red Ruffing is beyond me

[slotdirt]

Or Rube Marquard I suppose.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Or Rube Marquard I suppose.

Burleigh Grimes is questionable as well

[slotdirt]

Funny that you mention Dean when he's basically in the HOF for the same reason Hunter is - a couple decent peak years. Unfortunately for your argument, Dean had more and better peak years than did Hunter. Ruffing also kills Hunter in virtually every measurable meaningful statistic save career ERA, plus he was inducted because just about every decent Yanks player from that time is also in the HOF. Not my cup of tea, but probably at least equally as deserving as Hunter.

I think Marquard is his only real competition for the title of "worst pitcher in the baseball HOF" to be honest.

[slotdirt]

Burleigh Grimes is also on the questionable list, I would agree.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Funny that you mention Dean when he's basically in the HOF for the same reason Hunter is - a couple decent peak years. Unfortunately for your argument, Dean had more and better peak years than did Hunter. Ruffing also kills Hunter in virtually every measurable meaningful statistic save career ERA, plus he was inducted because just about every decent Yanks player from that time is also in the HOF. Not my cup of tea, but probably at least equally as deserving as Hunter.

I think Marquard is his only real competition for the title of "worst pitcher in the baseball HOF" to be honest.

Dean had 3 really good years and 2 pretty good years and pretty much thats it. You want to penalize Hunter for being in the bigs at 19 and having 3 injury plagued years where he didnt even make 1/2 season at the end of his career. Hunter is a better pitcher than Ruffing.

[Crown@club]

Interesting since it took Lou Whitaker 700 more plate appearances to either match statistics or come up short compared to Ryne Sandberg.

[Cannon Shell]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...itching_simple

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...itching_simple

[slotdirt]

The statistic that counts - IMHO - is WAR, and Whitaker killed Sandberg over the course of his career. I know I'm not the only one who thinks Whitaker is one of the truly underappreciated players of all time.

Hunter is 195th in career WAR for pitchers, and has the lowest ERA+ of any starting pitcher in the baseball HOF. He basically had three above average seasons and 12 really average (or even below average in many cases) ones. Red Ruffing had three seasons of ERA+ better than Hunter's top of 140, Dizzy Dean had two. Catfish Hunter was probably a better pitcher than Rube Marquard, however, who basically was enshrined because he wrote a book that was filled with lies.

P.S. - and yes, of course I want to penalize Hunter for having an injury plagued career. It's fine to have an injury shortened career and make the HOF, but Pedro Martinez or Sandy Koufax (or even Dizzy Dean) Hunter surely was not.

[Crown@club]

If we want to go by WAR
In 15 seasons Sandberg had a WAR score of over 5, 6 times at an overall average of 4.140

In 18 seasons Whitaker had a WAR score of over 5, 4 times at an overall average of 3.889

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The statistic that counts - IMHO - is WAR, and Whitaker killed Sandberg over the course of his career. I know I'm not the only one who thinks Whitaker is one of the truly underappreciated players of all time.

Hunter is 195th in career WAR for pitchers, and has the lowest ERA+ of any starting pitcher in the baseball HOF. He basically had three above average seasons and 12 really average (or even below average in many cases) ones. Red Ruffing had three seasons of ERA+ better than Hunter's top of 140, Dizzy Dean had two. Catfish Hunter was probably a better pitcher than Rube Marquard, however, who basically was enshrined because he wrote a book that was filled with lies.

P.S. - and yes, of course I want to penalize Hunter for having an injury plagued career. It's fine to have an injury shortened career and make the HOF, but Pedro Martinez or Sandy Koufax (or even Dizzy Dean) Hunter surely was not.

He had 3 above average seasons? LOL.
From 1971-1975 (5 seasons)
Hunter was 111-49 with a 2.65 era
96 complete games with 25 shutouts in those 5 years
Led league in winning % 2 of those years, led league in win 2 other years, led league in era, complete games, whip, h9, IP
Finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th in Cy Young voting in those 5 years
Was an all star every year

Hunters WAR ratings are effected by his HR rates. He did give up a lot of HRs. But to say his 1973 seson of 21-5 with a 3.34 era and finished 3rd in the Cy young voting because he gave up 39HR's and his WAR is not high enough is silly.

[slotdirt]

Hunter's WAR ratings are affected by the fact that he was a modestly above average pitcher playing for the two big dynasties of the 1970's. If he had pitched for, say, the Indians in those years, he'd have ended up with a sub .500 career record and would be remembered as an inferior pitcher to Luis Tiant. I give him credit, he ended up in two great situations in his career, but pound for pound, Mark Buerhle has been a better pitcher than he, and I'm only 40 percent sure he'll ever make the HOF.

To Crown - so what if the average WAR seasons for Sandberg and Whitaker were just barely slanted in Sandberg's favor, it doesn't change the fact that one of them was inducted on their second ballot and the othe was dismissed with like seven votes his first year of elibility. They were, for all intents and purposes, basically the same player playing in the exact same era.

[slotdirt]

Hunter led the league in ERA precisely one time. He led the league in ERA+ precisely zero times.

Also, re: 1973, 21-5 and 3.34 are great, but as anybody who's watched a baseball game ever knows, wins are literally 50% influenced by somebody other than the pitcher, and aside from finishing 4th in wins and first in HR's allowed, Hunter missed finishing in the top 10 that year in any single measurable pitching category for the season.

His career ERA+ was basically the level of a replacement player. There are no amount of phony award votes that can argue him out of the fact he was a perfectly average pitcher for some very, very awesome teams.