Tim Duncan

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Big man crush on Harden. Top 15 player right now IMO.

I have no idea how you compare different positions like Centers (like Duncan) and Point guards but...
No particular order
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Durant
James
Dirk
Paul
Williams
Westbrook
Love
Bynum
Griffin
Rondo
Anthony
Rose
Gasol/Gasol
Aldridge
Ginobilli
Pierce
Garnett
Nash
Jefferson
Chandler
Smith
Johnson
Parker

Forgetting anyone?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have no idea how you compare different positions like Centers (like Duncan) and Point guards but...
No particular order
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Durant
James
Dirk
Paul
Williams
Westbrook
Love
Bynum
Griffin
Rondo
Anthony
Rose
Gasol/Gasol
Aldridge
Ginobilli
Pierce
Garnett
Nash
Jefferson
Chandler
Smith
Johnson
Parker

Forgetting anyone?

Of course outside the very top it is pretty subjective, but I see a few I wouldn't dream of taking over Harden. Those include:

Gasol/Gasol (especially Pau)
Bynum
Griffin
Ginobli (they are very close, but one is young, one isn't and he misses a lot of time)
Pierce (really, now?)
Jefferson (Al or Richard? ROFLMAO)
Smith


One I would add though:

Irving

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course outside the very top it is pretty subjective, but I see a few I wouldn't dream of taking over Harden. Those include:

You've obviously seen Harden a lot more than I have, so let me ask you....don't you think playing with Westbrook and Durant helps out Harden's game a lot? In the same way a guy hitting in front of or behind someone like Pujols looks better than maybe they are?

Clearly Harden is a very good player. But I wonder if he looks better because of what is around him.

Off topic, but whoever your GM is deserves a raise. He's hit a lot of homeruns in the draft.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You've obviously seen Harden a lot more than I have, so let me ask you....don't you think playing with Westbrook and Durant helps out Harden's game a lot? In the same way a guy hitting in front of or behind someone like Pujols looks better than maybe they are?

Clearly Harden is a very good player. But I wonder if he looks better because of what is around him.

Off topic, but whoever your GM is deserves a raise. He's hit a lot of homeruns in the draft.

Honestly, in his case, it think if anything it holds him back a little bit. When he controls the ball, which he often doesn't do because of the other two, he is unbelievably efficient. His defense is pretty darn good too. When he plays without those two and draws a top defensive player and it doesn't seem to matter.

Sam Presti is a great GM. People here griped about Westbrook with the 4th pick. They did the same with Harden when he was taken with the 3rd pick. Thankfully, he seems to know what he is doing. He cut his teeth with the Spurs and obviously learned well.

[RockHardTen1985]

Harden is a stud. He does eerything well. I would take Harden over Melo anyday at this point.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course outside the very top it is pretty subjective, but I see a few I wouldn't dream of taking over Harden. Those include:

Gasol/Gasol (especially Pau)
Bynum
Griffin
Ginobli (they are very close, but one is young, one isn't and he misses a lot of time)
Pierce (really, now?)
Jefferson (Al or Richard? ROFLMAO)
Smith


One I would add though:

Irving

You would take Harden over Andrew Bynum or Blake Griffin? lol ok
Al Jefferson averages 20-10
Josh smith averaged 19-9-4 last year

Harden has gone from being unknown to a bit overrated very quickly.
This is a guy averaging 13 points and 3.5 assists in the playoffs
And the idea that playing with Durant and Westbrook doesn't help him is strange. Coming off the bench means initially he is matched up against subs plus the opposing teams best perimiter defender is almost never on him as he is on Durant, Westbrook or resting if those guys aren't in the game.
He is a good defender, great penetrating from the point, good open 3 point shooter and decent passer but the team he plays on makes a big difference in his game because he has to have the ball in his hand to be most effective. Put him on the Lakers or Knicks or Heat or teams with ball stoppers and he wouldn't fare well. Put him on a team like Utah or the Nets and nobody would hear from him again.

I'd have a hard time trading Harden for anyone...especially if I were the guy who drafted him 3rd.

Hindsight and whatnot but what looked like an awful pick is turning out to be pure genius. Harden is on the treadmill at a max incline.

The problem they have is keeping him long-term.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You would take Harden over Andrew Bynum or Blake Griffin? lol ok
Al Jefferson averages 20-10
Josh smith averaged 19-9-4 last year

Harden has gone from being unknown to a bit overrated very quickly.
This is a guy averaging 13 points and 3.5 assists in the playoffs
And the idea that playing with Durant and Westbrook doesn't help him is strange. Coming off the bench means initially he is matched up against subs plus the opposing teams best perimiter defender is almost never on him as he is on Durant, Westbrook or resting if those guys aren't in the game.
He is a good defender, great penetrating from the point, good open 3 point shooter and decent passer but the team he plays on makes a big difference in his game because he has to have the ball in his hand to be most effective. Put him on the Lakers or Knicks or Heat or teams with ball stoppers and he wouldn't fare well. Put him on a team like Utah or the Nets and nobody would hear from him again.

Chuck I think your wrong on this 1. Plus I think Hardens a much better poing guard then Westbrook. He just creates, and does not really turn the ball over. Being 22 helps. Give him 4 years to improve his game, then another 6 in his prime. The guy is awesome now.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Chuck I think your wrong on this 1. Plus I think Hardens a much better poing guard then Westbrook. He just creates, and does not really turn the ball over. Being 22 helps. Give him 4 years to improve his game, then another 6 in his prime. The guy is awesome now.

He isnt better than Westbrook. He is a good player but he fits his role on this team very well. I dont think he would be nearly as effective as the focal point of a different team's offense.

But of course you did say that Westbrook couldn't play in the NBA or something like that right?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a guy averaging 13 points and 3.5 assists in the playoffs
And the idea that playing with Durant and Westbrook doesn't help him is strange. Coming off the bench means initially he is matched up against subs plus the opposing teams best perimiter defender is almost never on him as he is on Durant, Westbrook or resting if those guys aren't in the game.

This was sort of my point, but didn't have the time to type it all out. Big difference between being the third option, compared to the first.

But I give Harden all the credit in the world for draining that three the other night. He didn't shy away from the moment, which is a quality you want in a player.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

This was sort of my point, but didn't have the time to type it all out. Big difference between being the third option, compared to the first.

But I give Harden all the credit in the world for draining that three the other night. He didn't shy away from the moment, which is a quality you want in a player.

I love Harden's game. I think he is a really good player. But I think that OKC's offense and defense allows him to be about as good as he can be. On defense he can cheat and has the NBA's best shot blocker behind him. On offense the court is always spread because Westbrook and Durant and to a lesser extend Cook make you guard them outside and they have no real post offense to speak of. The fact that Harden has that sneaky quick first step with a spead defense allows him to draw a lot of foul shots which he usually makes. He is a good passer and a good shooter especially when he is open. Honestly he is like a younger version of Ginobili minus the trick shots.

[King Glorious]

Right now, James is 16-21 for 39 points. Wade is 2-10 for nine points.

James is a +11
Wade is a +12

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You would take Harden over Andrew Bynum or Blake Griffin? lol ok
Al Jefferson averages 20-10
Josh smith averaged 19-9-4 last year

Harden has gone from being unknown to a bit overrated very quickly.
This is a guy averaging 13 points and 3.5 assists in the playoffs
And the idea that playing with Durant and Westbrook doesn't help him is strange. Coming off the bench means initially he is matched up against subs plus the opposing teams best perimiter defender is almost never on him as he is on Durant, Westbrook or resting if those guys aren't in the game.
He is a good defender, great penetrating from the point, good open 3 point shooter and decent passer but the team he plays on makes a big difference in his game because he has to have the ball in his hand to be most effective. Put him on the Lakers or Knicks or Heat or teams with ball stoppers and he wouldn't fare well. Put him on a team like Utah or the Nets and nobody would hear from him again.

Over Bynum? Absolutely. I don't think he will ever be a winner and is a cancer. Sure, he is bigger and more talented, but I would NEVER want him.

Griffin is a highlight show, but he isn't that great of a player. His game has some very big flaws.

It is always tough to judge a guy like Harden. It is possible he looks better playing with those guys, but the flip side is he might be better. He is a guaranteed 20+ PPG scorer if he was a #1 or #2 option, I don't care who is guarding him. All those things about coming off the bench and facing mostly reserves are kind of out the window in the playoffs. Even so, he is double teamed often. The Thunder are a team that usually has two guys on the court that can't score, and he still scores.

Josh Smith and Al Jefferson are numbers guys on not very good teams...big deal. Every team has one of those guys. I watch way too much NBA, so I don't just look at numbers. I wouldn't trade Jefferson for Perkins, why the hell would I think he is better than Harden?

[cmorioles]

Thunder +/- for the series:

Harden		47
Fisher		27
Westbrook	26
Ibaka		25
Durant		10
Sefalosha	8
Collison	8
Ivey		-5
Hayward		-5
Aldrich		-5
Mohammed	-7
Perkins		-16
Cook		-18

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Thunder +/- for the series:

Harden		47
Fisher		27
Westbrook	26
Ibaka		25
Durant		10
Sefalosha	8
Collison	8
Ivey		-5
Hayward		-5
Aldrich		-5
Mohammed	-7
Perkins		-16
Cook		-18

+/- in the NBA is an extremely flawed stat unless you believe that Fisher has been the 2nd best player on OKC

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

+/- in the NBA is an extremely flawed stat unless you believe that Fisher has been the 2nd best player on OKC

It isn't the best stat for sure, but it isn't as bad as some make it out to be. Over the long haul it is very telling.

For the season, Westbrook led at +368, then Durant and Harden were at +367. It is pretty amazing they would all be so close. Of course, Harden did his in a lot less minutes.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Over Bynum? Absolutely. I don't think he will ever be a winner and is a cancer. Sure, he is bigger and more talented, but I would NEVER want him.

Griffin is a highlight show, but he isn't that great of a player. His game has some very big flaws.

It is always tough to judge a guy like Harden. It is possible he looks better playing with those guys, but the flip side is he might be better. He is a guaranteed 20+ PPG scorer if he was a #1 or #2 option, I don't care who is guarding him. All those things about coming off the bench and facing mostly reserves are kind of out the window in the playoffs. Even so, he is double teamed often. The Thunder are a team that usually has two guys on the court that can't score, and he still scores.

Josh Smith and Al Jefferson are numbers guys on not very good teams...big deal. Every team has one of those guys. I watch way too much NBA, so I don't just look at numbers. I wouldn't trade Jefferson for Perkins, why the hell would I think he is better than Harden?

I can think of a lot of guys who can fill the role that Harden plays but I can't think of too many that can play Bynum's or like Griffin. As a matter of fact there arent any really. Is Harden really much different than S. Curry or Joe Johnson?

Blake Griffin averages 22-12-3.5, shoots 53% from the field
He is 2nd team all NBA in his 2nd season and is already the best true power forward in the league. Just sayin...

Al Jefferson is probably as good of low post scorer as there is in the NBA. He isn't exactly a defensive specialist but if he and not Bosh was on the Heat they would have beaten Dallas last year.

Harden is a really good player but he is in the ideal system for his game.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I can think of a lot of guys who can fill the role that Harden plays but I can't think of too many that can play Bynum's or like Griffin. As a matter of fact there arent any really. Is Harden really much different than S. Curry or Joe Johnson?

Blake Griffin averages 22-12-3.5, shoots 53% from the field
He is 2nd team all NBA in his 2nd season and is already the best true power forward in the league. Just sayin...

Al Jefferson is probably as good of low post scorer as there is in the NBA. He isn't exactly a defensive specialist but if he and not Bosh was on the Heat they would have beaten Dallas last year.

Harden is a really good player but he is in the ideal system for his game.

You don't think Blake Griffin was helped immensely by adding Chris Paul? Come on. He is great in transition. In the half court he is a liability, and he can't shoot free throws. That is HUGE against good teams when it counts.

He also is only an average rebounder at best. One of the Memphis games he had 0 or 1 rebounds while playing 40 minutes. How is that even possible for a power forward? He is probably above average on the offensive glass, but on the other end not so much. As a power forward I wouldn't even take him over a healthy A'mare right now.

If you think Curry could replace Harden you are sadly mistaken. He can't guard anyone and is much shorter. He doesn't really do anything better than Harden. Johnson, you can have him. What does he do better? Atlanta will regret that contract for a long time.

Jefferson is good on the block, but that is all he is. He can't guard anyone and doesn't shoot very well outside about 10 feet. I'm not a big Chris Bosh fan, but you wouldn't find 5 GMs in the league that would take Jefferson over him. He may fit better with the Heat, but that isn't what we were talking about.

Back to Harden, I watch the games. That guy is an all star. If he left, his numbers will go up, and you can book that. He isn't just a scorer, he gets lots of assists too. Guys like Steve Kerr and Bruce Bowen were system guys, Harden is not. He can flat out play.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You don't think Blake Griffin was helped immensely by adding Chris Paul? Come on. He is great in transition. In the half court he is a liability, and he can't shoot free throws. That is HUGE against good teams when it counts.

He also is only an average rebounder at best. One of the Memphis games he had 0 or 1 rebounds while playing 40 minutes. How is that even possible for a power forward? He is probably above average on the offensive glass, but on the other end not so much. As a power forward I wouldn't even take him over a healthy A'mare right now.

If you think Curry could replace Harden you are sadly mistaken. He can't guard anyone and is much shorter. He doesn't really do anything better than Harden. Johnson, you can have him. What does he do better? Atlanta will regret that contract for a long time.

Jefferson is good on the block, but that is all he is. He can't guard anyone and doesn't shoot very well outside about 10 feet. I'm not a big Chris Bosh fan, but you wouldn't find 5 GMs in the league that would take Jefferson over him. He may fit better with the Heat, but that isn't what we were talking about.

Back to Harden, I watch the games. That guy is an all star. If he left, his numbers will go up, and you can book that. He isn't just a scorer, he gets lots of assists too. Guys like Steve Kerr and Bruce Bowen were system guys, Harden is not. He can flat out play.

Griffin's numbers were roughly the same with and without Paul. He cant rebound? He was 6th in the NBA in rebounding and 7th in defensive rebounds. The Amare thing is laughable if you watched him at all this season. 1st he will never be healthy again and even when he was at the top of his game he was hardly a great rebounder never averaging 10 a game and never played defense. Plus Griffin is a sneaky good passer averaging 3.5 assists a game. I understand people like to be contrary but Griffin is a true star.

I think that you are being a homer if you dont think that Harden is very similar to Johnson and has plays similar to Curry. These are compliments but the point was that Bynum is a pretty uniquely talented player who is clearly the 2nd best center in the game.

I never said that he was a system player but he surely benefits from the team and system that he plays in. Put him on the floor with a non passing ball stopper like Carmelo or Kobe and his game would suffer. As a matter of fact I see so many similarities with Johnson that it is uncanny. If Johnson played on the Heat or Knicks he would be All NBA 2nd or 3rd team every year.