Problems with Hollywood park's new track?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Quick Little Miss likes Firestones.
Imagine a rematch of the top two on dirt? How many ****ing lengths do you think Jump On In would win by?
How about a Notional-belgravia dirt rematch? Wanna tell me whos favored in that one?

We'll see who accomplishes more between Belgravia and Notional. I think Belgravia is a better horse and will prove to be a better horse on any surface.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

It amazes me that you think trainers would run horses on the cushion if they thought they didn't like it.I haven't heard that comment from trainers."She doesn't like it as much as the dirt,but we are gunna see if she can overcome it." Who is saying that? You are saying it.You are assuming horses don't like it (after they get beat.) They like it,but they might need the advantage of the concrete to get their speed to last.Which track has horses winning from different parts of the field routinely? The cushion.Anita is the one where one part of the field often wins most of the races.

Scuds what ****ing choice do they have out there?
There ain't a place to ship to within hundreds of miles.
They are training there, they got horses, they gotta try it and run.
It ain't like they have options.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Scuds, I have yet tohear from anyone that their horses don't train well on it.
What i do hear is that they train great and then don't run a step on it during the race.
Jump On In TRAINED FASTER on it than she RAN ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
She has so much more ability than Quick that it aint funny.
You cashed a bet, props. But I will pose the question again, you win a contest and you can choose which filly's earnings you get from here on out, which filly do you take?

Jump has won a maiden race so far.She cost 410k,and just got beat by a very game 40k horse.I would imagine that JUMP can win some races at the rock hard Anita,and Gulfstream,but on a fair track like the cushion she might have trouble.I think she needs a speed favoring track.Sure she can beat QLM on a speed favoring track.

[SniperSB23]

I love Notional but there is nothing surprising about a horse that just ran huge at six furlongs flattening out in the end of a seven furlong race. The distance could have done him in as much as anything and the previous race certainly could have taken a lot out of him. Very hard to place the blame on the cushion track especially when he loses to a $2 million horse and another very nice horse in Dillemma. What happened to Circle the World is a much better argument against Cushion Track than Notional.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Scuds what ****ing choice do they have out there?
There ain't a place to ship to within hundreds of miles.
They are training there, they got horses, they gotta try it and run.
It ain't like they have options.

Well join the club.Raters have been screwed at Anita for 20 years.If you need a speed favoring track to win,then you will get it at Anita.If you can't win on a surface fair to the whole field ,then your time in Cali is short.All the tracks are going to a non-speed favoring surface.Again,I repeat that speed horses are wiring fields on the cushion.Raters are struggling at Anita.They have been for 20 years.You tell me which is the biased track.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Well join the club.Raters have been screwed at Anita for 20 years.If you need a speed favoring track to win,then you will get it at Anita.If you can't win on a surface fair to the whole field ,then your time in Cali is short.All the tracks are going to a non-speed favoring surface.Again,I repeat that speed horses are wiring fields on the cushion.Raters are struggling at Anita.They have been for 20 years.You tell me which is the biased track.

I don't think you are getting what I hold to be true.
Its not the bias or lack of one that I dislike, far from it. I love closing biases on dirt tracks, its easier to score with one of those.
But I truly don't think the majority of horses run their best on it. In a race like the one with Jump and Miss, I think the time will show you that noone particularly loved it. If it was a surface where some just loved it, that would be fine as well. But i don't see that. I see figs crashing by as many as 5 horses in the same race, which eliminates the notion that one or two just didnt fire for other reasons than the surface.
Hard to convince me that day in and day out when 3-6 horses in a race don't run a fig commensurate with their ability, that horses just aren't firing on it.
I think many of these races go to the horse who dislikes it the least. That I have a problem with. Lack of a bias I don't have a problem with.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't think you are getting what I hold to be true.
Its not the bias or lack of one that I dislike, far from it. I love closing biases on dirt tracks, its easier to score with one of those.
But I truly don't think the majority of horses run their best on it. In a race like the one with Jump and Miss, I think the time will show you that noone particularly loved it. If it was a surface where some just loved it, that would be fine as well. But i don't see that. I see figs crashing by as many as 5 horses in the same race, which eliminates the notion that one or two just didnt fire for other reasons than the surface.
Hard to convince me that day in and day out when 3-6 horses in a race don't run a fig commensurate with their ability, that horses just aren't firing on it.
I think many of these races go to the horse who dislikes it the least. That I have a problem with. Lack of a bias I don't have a problem with.

I don't think the results of the races on the artificial surfaces have been that unusual but it does create a nightmare with figures. For whatever reason all the times are relatively close and the fields are fairly bunched that there is very little spread in the figures. It is very tough to get a high figure and you have to be eased in order to run a really poor one. Weird stuff, I wonder if they'll adjust the figures eventually to treat a length on poly as equivalent to two lengths on dirt or something to make the figures on poly more comparable to the figures on dirt.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't think you are getting what I hold to be true.
Its not the bias or lack of one that I dislike, far from it. I love closing biases on dirt tracks, its easier to score with one of those.
But I truly don't think the majority of horses run their best on it. In a race like the one with Jump and Miss, I think the time will show you that noone particularly loved it. If it was a surface where some just loved it, that would be fine as well. But i don't see that. I see figs crashing by as many as 5 horses in the same race, which eliminates the notion that one or two just didnt fire for other reasons than the surface.
Hard to convince me that day in and day out when 3-6 horses in a race don't run a fig commensurate with their ability, that horses just aren't firing on it.
I think many of these races go to the horse who dislikes it the least. That I have a problem with. Lack of a bias I don't have a problem with.

Well,if jocks start saying that their horses aren't getting ahold of it(like so many said at Churchill on BC DAY,) then I can understand what you are saying.I don't think it is the case.Jump made a nice move(seemed to like the track when she kicked clear huh?,) but she got tired going 7f.Not a surprise that a filly chasing a 44'3 gets a little late.We all know ot is a difficult distance for youngsters to get if they go too fast,and thanks to Mr. Solis' horse,they went too fast.That surface is about a full second slower than the previous dirt track.That is why you don't see anybody else going a 44'3 on that track (in the other races yesterday.) Your assuming they didn't like the track.Everything I have heard is contrary to that.I am not seeing interviews with jocks saying their horse hated the track.They like it.Sure,some would find it easier to win on a harder surface.They can better stretch their speed out on that,but speed horses are winning on the cushion( they are earning it though.)I think the better horses are not getting as tired.It doesn't mean the horses that they pass didn't handle the surface.If you have heard interviews about jocks saying their horse couldn't handle the surface,then please let me know.Nakatani(for instance)said that Jump "did get tired," and that she will do better next time.He didn't say she didn't like it.That's an assumption you are making when horses are getting tired,and so far it has not been backed up by those riding,and training the horses.

[Honu]

Here's the lowdown on what screwed the track up so bad, the trackman for some strange reason thought it would be a good idea to switch the rollers and the harrows around . So he put the rollers on right behind the tractor and the harrows on behind the rollers, the end product was wavy gravy. I just dont understand what part of maintenance free surface dont they get , it must just be the human nature of the trackman to try and mess with it.
The track was uniform and waveless this morning now if they could just refrain from *ucking with it we should be in good shape.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I'll say this ,Oracle.Many of the horses we have talked about being disappointments on this cushion track (in the last week) have been ridden as if they are still at Santa Anita.This track is (to me)atleast 1 second slower than the dirt they had here(yet they are still riding as if they are at Santa Anita.)They need to respect the fact that it is slower.That means when Solis ' horse went a 44'3 it was like going a a 43'4 or something,and the others were trying to keep up with that horse.The horse you speak of(JUMP ON IN) was 2 lengths off this 44'3(to me that is probably more like going 44 flat or something.)It is too fast for a 2 year old filly to run,and hang around for 7f. Court went 22.50,and 45.18 while clear on the lead in the 7th race.It was not a contested pace,and he kept going easily all the way around on the front.There is a fine line,and they are running too fast for this surface.For instance Notional was leading at about a 1:10 clip.Well,I think to the horse it feels more like a 1:09,and that might just have been too quick as well.When they stop riding the track like a speed track,I think a lot of these horses will stick around and have a say in the finish.Put it this way:If you're at Anita,you probably will find guys trying to avoid going sub 44(even if they can.)I think they need to try to stay at or above around 45 flat on this track.When they finally figure this out,horses like Jump will win.They need to make the adjustment (or they will struggle to finish 1st.) I think these horses like Jump like the track,but you can only go so fast on it if you want to hang around.They need to ride "more Eastern," and less like they are at Anita.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Honu

Here's the lowdown on what screwed the track up so bad, the trackman for some strange reason thought it would be a good idea to switch the rollers and the harrows around . So he put the rollers on right behind the tractor and the harrows on behind the rollers, the end product was wavy gravy. I just dont understand what part of maintenance free surface dont they get , it must just be the human nature of the trackman to try and mess with it.
The track was uniform and waveless this morning now if they could just refrain from *ucking with it we should be in good shape.

Thanks for the info. Nice to get real info from someone without an agenda or an overwrought pre-conception.

--Dunbar

I must complement the posters on this thread. It has stayed on track and relevant for the most part. All very interesting stuff. Thanks to those of you that take the time to observe and share.

And it has remained civil. Very nice stuff. Carry-on please.

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Thanks for the info. Nice to get real info from someone without an agenda or an overwrought pre-conception.

--Dunbar

It is nice to hear it from the mouth of someone who rides on it.
She gives credibility to the report which said the same thing on the internet yesterday.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I'll say this ,Oracle.Many of the horses we have talked about being disappointments on this cushion track (in the last week) have been ridden as if they are still at Santa Anita.This track is (to me)atleast 1 second slower than the dirt they had here(yet they are still riding as if they are at Santa Anita.)They need to respect the fact that it is slower.That means when Solis ' horse went a 44'3 it was like going a a 43'4 or something,and the others were trying to keep up with that horse.The horse you speak of(JUMP ON IN) was 2 lengths off this 44'3(to me that is probably more like going 44 flat or something.)It is too fast for a 2 year old filly to run,and hang around for 7f. Court went 22.50,and 45.18 while clear on the lead in the 7th race.It was not a contested pace,and he kept going easily all the way around on the front.There is a fine line,and they are running too fast for this surface.For instance Notional was leading at about a 1:10 clip.Well,I think to the horse it feels more like a 1:09,and that might just have been too quick as well.When they stop riding the track like a speed track,I think a lot of these horses will stick around and have a say in the finish.Put it this way:If you're at Anita,you probably will find guys trying to avoid going sub 44(even if they can.)I think they need to try to stay at or above around 45 flat on this track.When they finally figure this out,horses like Jump will win.They need to make the adjustment (or they will struggle to finish 1st.) I think these horses like Jump like the track,but you can only go so fast on it if you want to hang around.They need to ride "more Eastern," and less like they are at Anita.

I think you are on to something here. Now someone needs to tell the jockeys.

What I observe at the finish line is a bunch of horses who are going up and down and not forward. The horses who hang on and win seem to be laboring as bad as those chasing them but have a head start and hang on.
I don't see horses really running at the end.
Belgravia was narrowly saved by the line and it shocked me. He looked home free easily and the 2nd horse didn't appear to be flying to me so much as Belgravia was just exhausted.
I'm still seeing single file setups, with less contesting of the pace and movement on the backside then on dirt.
I'm watching Scuds, even though I'm not playing I'm watching.
The closers I see don't seem to be closing so much as the horses who they pass appear to be walking.
I'm also glad Honu said what she said about being decieved by times when she works her horses on it. I'm seeing jocks that appear to have no idea how much horse they have underneath them. Sitting chilly as if they have a ton and asking and finding they are dead empty. Also seeing guys whaling away on horses on the turn as if they are in trouble, who keep on rallying even though your eyes tell you they should be empty.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by oracle80

It is nice to hear it from the mouth of someone who rides on it.
She gives credibility to the report which said the same thing on the internet yesterday.

I just dont get why they cant let well enough alone, I know trainers for the most part are about speed out here , but to be honest 32,000 $ claimers should run 6 1/2 in 1:17 and good horses should go 8 lengths faster in about 1:15. When cheap horses go 3/4 in 1:08 and change they shouldnt wonder why their horses break down and are sore or do they even care.

Originally Posted by Honu

I just dont get why they cant let well enough alone, I know trainers for the most part are about speed out here , but to be honest 32,000 $ claimers should run 6 1/2 in 1:17 and good horses should go 8 lengths faster in about 1:15. When cheap horses go 3/4 in 1:08 and change they shouldnt wonder why their horses break down and are sore or do they even care.

Honu, you and I have spoken before and you conceded without me asking you to that East Coast trainers were better at getting horses fit without killing them in training.
When I was in Kentucky Frank Lyons, who used to train, and I got in a horse talk and I told him I thought the Cali trainers were the problem, not the surfaces, because every 7 days they zoom the **** out of them in the morning.
He responded to me with something that I had never even thought of, he said they didn't do it out of stupidity, he said they did it out of insecurity.
He said the guys out there were insecure and felt like if the horse wasn't zooming than he wasn't very good. I know Mullins takes it easy on them, and its my guess that he wins a lot because he claims these horses who are being beaten on and eases up on them.
Does ANYONE out there just breeze easily and gallop them into fitness? because quite frankly i don't think any new surface is gonna fix whats wrong out there, which is to work em just as fast as their little legs can carry them every 7 days. Nobody good in NY does that, nobody. You work a horse in 58 flat in Cali, and the trainer is thrilled. When that happens in NY, you can bet your ass that an exercise rider is now unemployed.

Originally Posted by Cardus

Oracle,

So THAT'S Mullins secret?

Look whatever he does, he does, I'm aware of his transgressions. But hes a good horseman. And no, I've never met or spoken to the guy.

[SentToStud]

I read up on this CushionTrack/PolyTrack stuff and from what I can tell there's not much difference between the two. It's Silica, rubber, other plastic and wax. If I were running Hollywood, I'd spend a few dollars and hire away someone from the Turfway track crew since that's the place where it's worked the best. If you get bored, here's the PolyTrack PPoint presentation to the California folks.
http://polytrack.com/presentation/index.html

Originally Posted by oracle80

What I observe at the finish line is a bunch of horses who are going up and down and not forward. The horses who hang on and win seem to be laboring as bad as those chasing them but have a head start and hang on.
I don't see horses really running at the end.
Belgravia was narrowly saved by the line and it shocked me. He looked home free easily and the 2nd horse didn't appear to be flying to me so much as Belgravia was just exhausted.
I'm still seeing single file setups, with less contesting of the pace and movement on the backside then on dirt.
I'm watching Scuds, even though I'm not playing I'm watching.
The closers I see don't seem to be closing so much as the horses who they pass appear to be walking.
I'm also glad Honu said what she said about being decieved by times when she works her horses on it. I'm seeing jocks that appear to have no idea how much horse they have underneath them. Sitting chilly as if they have a ton and asking and finding they are dead empty. Also seeing guys whaling away on horses on the turn as if they are in trouble, who keep on rallying even though your eyes tell you they should be empty.

Ok this is what I have also noticed (more vertical motion and less horizontal) but I have not watched enough races to confirm this in any way completely. And from the composition of the track, I would have predicted this. It compacts and rebounds much better vertically than it does horizontally. I thought this might happen. I have no physical measurements or anything but it makes perfect sense.